Help with Rose and James, please in 1881

[cbcarolyn]

I can't find Dinah/Diana on Ancestry. She is Walton on FMP dob 1821

Vera

ahh yes, Walton on Ancestry too, Constable Street same as death. Be interesting to see where Edith was born and if it was close.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

vera and @Carolyn
Thank you so much ladies for beavering away at this and well done on the finds. Don't know how I missed the wills as I did look - I suspect that I only tried Diana and not Dinah, as that seems to be how she was referred to after her marriage to John Watson and I don't know WHY I didn't come across John's will.

We don't have Edith's BC - just the birth reg entry in the GRO index (which gives Hull) and then the mass baptism entry, which gives her dob.

Dinah is actually part of the extended family of Ann Cook,the ancestress of a friend, who asked me to see if I could find out what became of Ann's husband Robert Ransom(e) post the birth of Sarah Ann in 1856. I couldn't, and still can't, but along the way I discovered an additional child (Rose Hannah) and the whole family became like an itch, which I just had to keep scratching away at. Once I'd found the reason for Ann Cook Ransom being in the workhouse in 1861, I felt a great empathy for her and just had to see if I could do some unpicking of her siblings and also those of Robert Ransom, to see if I could find any evidence of family support for her.

Vera thank you so much for the wills references - I think I will send off for those myself as they are so cheap at present and getting to the bottom of James's origins has become a bit of a personal crusade, although he has nothing to do with me! You know how it can be and how family history can get under your skin.

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Wills ordered and due for viewing mid-September.
Hopefully, a little surprise gift for my friend - what a pair of saddos we are!

[cbcarolyn]

you will have to let us know what they say , be nice if we could find James and Rose Hannah in Hull.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

The will of John Watson became available today. Disappointingly it was very short and simple - everything was left to his wife Dinah, sole executor. No mention of anyone else, definitely no mention of any children. Will have to wait for the will of Dinah, but I suspect that too will be short and sweet, unless it mentions her niece Rose Ransom and a James.
Will post the results when the will is available - however, I'm thinking I'm not going to be able to get to the bottom of the "son" James "Watson." What we'll never get to know is whether they actually claimed Rose and James were their children, or whether it was just assumed to be so by the enumerator.

[cbcarolyn]

oh that is disappointing, fingers crossed for next one.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

The will of Diana (Dinah) Watson has finally arrived (came at the end of last week, whilst the computer was in for repair.) Her sole executor was a local Hull auctioneer and the two beneficiaries of her small estate were her niece Rose Ann Ransom and James Halliday DIBNEY. Rose got the furniture, James got my oil painting of "a cow in landscape" (!) and Diana's family bible. Any money was to be shared equally between them.

I suspect the relevant birth reg was James Holiday DIBNAH (no mmn ) Q4 1862 Hull. I can find no definitive trace of James after 1871 census, when he and Rose were recorded with Dinah and her husband. So, we are looking for a man with an oil painting of a cow and a family bible formerly owned by Dinah Watson, nee Cook (!) which could have originated with the Watson family, of whom I know nothing. So pleased I got the will, even if I can't solve the mystery of James.

Jay

[vera2013]

I like this story. That's a nice will. Something for everyone. Do you really have the painting willed to James or was it left behind at a property?

So we have James' birth defails. That's worth another look

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

what a lovely will, like Vera says do you still have the painting? that is fab.

In the will she has not said his relationship to her? yet said Rose was a neice?

[Janet in Yorkshire]

No we don't have the painting Vera - "my oil painting" was Diana's wording, which was in the will. At one time her husband was a "cow keeper," so the painting was a rather fitting subject for the Watson couple. I find it very heart warming when these relationships follow through as it sounds like Diana still had contact with both the children she raised.

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

what a lovely will, like Vera says do you still have the painting? that is fab.

In the will she has not said his relationship to her? yet said Rose was a neice?

No, she didn't state any relationship for James, which was rather disappointing. I have just assumed that he is the same James as the boy she brought up - however, we all know that we shouldn't assume as it can make an "ass" out of "u" and "me."
I did find a James Dibnah in Hull census returns, but I'm not sure whether or not it is him as the age is out and that could be James HENRY Dibner b 1857.
James Halliday Dibney & James Holiday Dibner sound very similar to me.

Jay

[cbcarolyn]

ahh - that makes sense re painting. But no idea James relationship?

[vera2013]

I understand now re painting. Nice to have gifts for the memories. Makes me think perhaps when making my Will I should have included gift items for 'the memories'.

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I understand now re painting. Nice to have gifts for the memories. Makes me think perhaps when making my Will I should have included gift items for 'the memories'.

Vera

Vera, an old lady remembered me in her will and left me coronation mugs for George V and Edward VIII because she knew that since childhood I'd been interested in the descendants of Queen Victoria.(Yes, I've always been fascinated by who begat who for as far back as I can remember ) I treasure them both and they remind me of the many funny stories and anecdotes she shared with me. She was quite a character and "lives on" in my memories although its several decades since she passed away.

Society has changed and I don't think trinkets are of any real significance to current generations. I hope my executors will send my much loved bits and pieces to auction, rather than putting them in the bin, where they probably belong. Auctions aren't just about money - it's more a way of finding new owners who will cherish various bits and bobs.

Jay

[vera2013]

Lovely to have the reminder of friends' passed. I am the youngest of a family of 5 so will look to a younger friend who I know will like what I have in mind just for the memory. Younger generation perhaps not so interested. A lot I know will end up cleared or at the charity shop.

Will take another look at your James

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

I notice there is a William Holiday Dibnah too, Not really sure what to make of that no MMN either, a couple of transcribed baptisms on ancestry for William with parents Maria and James

[cbcarolyn]

there is a James Holiday living with James and Eliza in Norfolk, born in Hull

James Holiday father is here with servant Eliza Dibnah, and no James

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/ERYRG10_4798_4801-0500?treeid=168429411&personid=172233567210&hintid=1013525809266&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi33032&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.59887853.1559891587.1602197804-1485122363.1543608453&pId=10112825

off to sleep now!

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thank you Vera.
Thank you Carolyn. Curiouser and curiouser; food for thought.

Jay

[cbcarolyn]

no idea if this is your man, certainly a good combination of names to make him rare, here is a marriage record for him

James Dibnah Holiday but not as will stated James Dibney Halliday

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...453&pId=290993

Need to work backwards to see if a link can be found to Dinah

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Good find, Carolyn, thank you - would never have thought of turning around the names! Age of James D H seems a good fit for starters I have to go out shortly, so will have to leave it until I come back , but definitely worth a good work through. I see that James D H was a farm manager, so the oil painting of the cow could have been an appropriate bequest. And if the person scribing the will was unfamiliar with the names, there could quite easily have been a name transposition.

Jay