Crime and Punishment - Hard labour

[Gardengirl]

Ancestry has just provided me with this as a hint.



Pretty sure it's not my man but it just got me thinking. Why don't we punish people like this now? When did we start being so soft on people that have committed crimes? Surely the prospect of this kind of punishment would be a deterrent?

[cbcarolyn]

I presume community service is the new hard labour, but pretty certain it is easier!

[Gardengirl]

And if it’s meant to be a deterrent it clearly isn’t working!

[GallowayLass]

Quite disgusted though that the chap who commits burglary for the second time gets 20 months hard labour and the chap who indecently assaults a 13 year old girl only gets 6 months of the same.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Under 13 - which could mean anything under 13 of course. Wasn't seen as a particularly bad crime unfortunately.

OC

[cbcarolyn]

yes, to me, the punishments often seem odd for the crime, I know nothing of the history of punishments, whether they were totally random, or whether there was some 'rules'.

and when they were reformed.

[Gardengirl]

I did wonder about the sexual assault one but that could cover a wide spectrum of things so whatever he did might not have been so serious, especially against the standards of the day. I forgot to make a note but this came from the Old bailey around 1880-90

[Olde Crone Holden]

It must have been quite serious, to be reported to the police. Much sexual crime was brushed under the carpet out of a mixture of embarrassment and a feeling that the victim had done something to encourage it, even child victims.

I got sidetracked years ago, reading about the different punishments for the samecrimes centuries ago. It really did seem to be down to where you lived and your social status, plus the whims of the local magistrate or JPs. Manorial courts were based on the old Danelaw principles and the punishments more or less fitted the crimes although I couldn't get over the punishment for murder - if the relatives would accept "blood money" or danegelt, you were off the hook. If they wouldn't, or you couldn't pay, you were dead.

One that sticks in my mind as an amazingly modern understanding of things was a murder case. A ten year old maidservant had suffocated her very elderly mistress because she wanted to go home and her father had told her she could not go home until the old lady was dead. The girl was ordered to be imprisoned in her father's house and put under his supervision "for life".I

Also under danelaw, the punishment for rape was that the victim would be offered a ring or a rope and she could choose for the rapist to marry her (!) or to hang. I rather like that.

Sorry, I do get carried away with all this interesting (to me!)stuff.

OC

[cbcarolyn]

interesting stuff, quite amazing. I wonder how long she was under the supervision of the father - guess there was no one to check.

I don't even know when the probation service was introduced (worked there for a bit, but didn't do the history - mind you was surprised at the stuff that went on there, and that was only on the 90s!)

"Also under danelaw, the punishment for rape was that the victim would be offered a ring or a rope and she could choose for the rapist to marry her (!) or to hang. I rather like that." - what sort of era was this?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Up to about the 1600s as far as I can make out, in Lancashire anyway. There is nothing recorded (or I didn't find it) to say whether punishments were carried out or not. I also thought it interesting that rape would be tried in a manor court rather than at a higher level. Crimes against property seem to have been dealt with much more harshly than crimes against a person unless murder was concerned.

OC

[Gardengirl]

Sorry, I do get carried away with all this interesting (to me!)stuff.

OC

Don't be sorry. It is interesting to others, too

[grumpy]

I was always under the impression that crimes involving property, goods etc was treated far more seriously that crimes committed against the person, in days gone by.

[AntonyM]

Imprisonment with Hard Labour was introduced in the C19th and was ended in 1948.

Anyone interested in the subject of Victorian Crime/Criminals/Police & Punishment - I run a course on it for Pharos (https://www.pharostutors.com/)

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I was always under the impression that crimes involving property, goods etc was treated far more seriously that crimes committed against the person, in days gone by.

I was about to post the same, David.

Jay