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**GallowayLass** · 02-08-20, 15:02

That 1888 marriage is driving me nuts. I cannot find it in the marriage indexes. Have tried the couple together and separately and still nothing even using variant surnames. There are a few Simpson in 3Q 1888 and also 4Q but navigating to those pages in the images and looking for a SIMKINS or SIMPKINS with and without the final S still gives no match. Same with CHURCH.

**GallowayLass** · 02-08-20, 15:06

Not that it adds much but Yalding is a registration sub district of Maidstone so they hadn’t moved far for their marriage.

**Lin Fisher** · 02-08-20, 15:30

Just had another look and its the banns I found. Didn't look at the proper doc. Do you think they never married?

Didn't register until GL said she couldn't find it.

**Elaine** · 02-08-20, 20:33

Originally posted by MJLCarr View Post

Before her wedding in St. Mary Magdelene, Peckham she lived at 40 King's road with no occupation. She was 23 with her father being a "Thomas Church" deceased but also with no Occupation.

In 1911 she was living with her husband, a Shipwright, at 115 Drummond Road, Bermondsey.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ue&pId=6650058

I looked at 1911 and 1901 St. Mary's Road, after seeing the above marriage, sorry I missed King's Road whilst I was looking, so just wanted to clarify the address with you as occupation matches for hubby.

**Elaine** · 02-08-20, 21:03

Sorry, just amended above post, it was only 1901 I posted, 40 St. Mary's Road, address on marriage cert.

**cbcarolyn** · 02-08-20, 22:03

NB there is some info on this thread, from before, mainly around just Henry Arthur Chapman https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...d-illegitimacy

**cbcarolyn** · 02-08-20, 22:30

There is a Rosina Jane Church in St Pancras Workhouse, bit out of the area of south of the river.
b 1860 - she is with a Lilian may b 1899 - i can't make out who she is.
Says relative is daughter Mrs fisher on Holloway, so think this is another Rosina

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=3294546

**cbcarolyn** · 02-08-20, 22:51

Emily is the right age and mother is Rose, but POB is incorrect wimbledon

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=11482684
...and they are in Hammersmith

**cbcarolyn** · 02-08-20, 22:53

Originally posted by MJLCarr View Post

So I got the Birth Certificate and it seems to have thrown up more questions. She was born on 17th March 1885 it appears at a Union Workhouse in Linton. However, the mother was from Maidstone and the birth was registered in the district of Marden, a small village nearby. Linton, where the Emily was born and the mother resided, is on the border of Essex and Cambridgeshire.

I think the Linton is in Kent not the Cambs one.

The Workhouse in Maidstone, Kent

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Maidstone/

**cbcarolyn** · 03-08-20, 07:11

there are several entries for Emily church at this place, Brighton Road School:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2374043

says mother is in Gordon Road House, Camberwell. Look like these records are not on line?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/N13816972

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2284195

brother mentioned in last link.
none say mothers name or her dob, so could be wrong.

I assume the school must be on the census 1891

**cbcarolyn** · 03-08-20, 08:19

the school and 2 more are here
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...3&pId=18163874

can't see her on there, not sure why as even if not her should be an Emily Church as appears to be still there at age 13.

**GallowayLass** · 03-08-20, 13:12

Please bear with me; am off in the realms of wild goose chase thinking

This is a map of all the places associated with Rosina CHURCH and her forebears that I have found in the county of Kent from censuses.

A9C68AD3-E560-46EC-8F64-8CA61C128302.jpeg

There is only one Thomas SIM*KIN* in Kent in 1881 living at 17, Victoria Road, Tunbridge, Tonbridge, Kent, England. n.b. Tunbridge/Tonbridge is close to Yalding.

Jane	Simpkins	Head	Widow	Female	63	1818	Annuitant	, Gloucestershire, England
Thomas	Simpkins	Son	Single	Male	26	1855	Blacksmith	Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England
Ellen	Donoghue	Visitor	Single	Female	34	1847	General Servant	Middlesex, England

If you follow the hints forwards for him, this it what turns up in 1891
Address is Wellfield Road, Streatham, Wandsworth, London & Surrey, England

Thomas	Simpkins	Head	Married	Male	36	1855	Whitesmith	Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England
Emily	Simpkins	Wife	Married	Female	34	1857	-	Brixton, Surrey, England
Thomas	Simpkins	Son	-	Male	1	1890	-	Streatham, Surrey, England

I have found the mms of Emily to be GRUBB in GRO online birth index for the child Thomas. Thomas SIMPKINS and Emily GRUBB married 2Q 1887 Wandsworth but I have not found an online image of the certificate.

Theory - Thomas promised marriage to Rosina, banns were read and she was jilted. Thomas scarpers back up to London because he was already married to someone else there a year earlier. Whether he was actually Emily Minnie’s father is anybody’s guess.

1891 Thomas’ mother Jane is back in Tetbury, Gloucestershire, a widow living in her own means. In her household are two nieces both born Gloucestershire. The elder one appears to be her housemaid.

**GallowayLass** · 03-08-20, 14:37

Have come to a dead end I think. I have checked 1891 census for every Ros* born 1858 +/- 2 years who was born in Plumstead, Kent and cannot come up with any of the 14 matches as having a maiden name of CHURCH. All bar one are accounted for. The only stumbling block is Ann Rose WEARS (if the transcript on FMP is correct) who is single and working as a foster mother in the Fazakerley Cottage Homes, West Derby, Lancashire. I can’t find the birth on GRO online index of such a person and I’ve had a right good look with as many variants as I could think of. Brain hurts now so will gracefully retire. ?
I did manage to find details for Rosina CHURCH’s grandparents and great grandparents but I imagine you have all that already. The trees on ancestry are a confusing conundrum as per usual LOL

**cbcarolyn** · 03-08-20, 15:09

I am quite liking Emily in school (in Banstead) and clearly in "the House" as most of the discharges I found were there and not to mother.

Mother's name not mentioned anytime - not an address, nor DoB, never sees her mother, hence she has no idea where she was born?

She was sent from Camberwell

**vera2013** · 03-08-20, 15:20

It's a mystery indeed GL.

I have browsed on FMP Kent CD marriage records. No record of marriage for Rosina and Thomas shortly after Banns but didn't browse for many months.

I have also looked at x 2 Thomas Simkins b Camberwell. One b 1851 living with mother Jane, a Labourer. A second one b 1856 is living with wife Susan A Mitchell whom he married in 1889. However he had lived with her and had children with her prior to the marriage. That Thomas worked in the paper industry as did Rosina according to Emily Minnie's birth reg. I wonder if GL's theory applies to this Thomas

Still not seeing anything on Emily Minnie.

Vera

**cbcarolyn** · 03-08-20, 15:41

1891 Gordon Road census clearly no Rosina on there as GL would have found her

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview..._482_484-0662?

Looks like they have vanished

**cbcarolyn** · 03-08-20, 15:51

Originally posted by Elaine View Post

Did find this census, Emily Church, servant, age 16 born London Peckham, in Peckham, same area as Henry but she just happens to be at 37 St. Mary's Road

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

The Nicols family this Emily works for, are still at no. 37 in 1911

Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post

there are several entries for Emily church at this place, Brighton Road School:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2374043

says mother is in Gordon Road House, Camberwell. Look like these records are not on line?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/N13816972

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2284195

These could be the same Emily Church as she was sent from Camberwell to Banstead, and I assume possibly sent back? Camberwell recorded all the way through, and Gordon Rd workhouse is in Peckham - Here are a few I have found 9 so far
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...8_550609-00309
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...8_550605-00198
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...8_550610-00167
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...8_550610-00157

I wonder if Peckham as birth is a red herring as she really doesn't know.

**vera2013** · 03-08-20, 16:12

Following Carolyns lead re Emily's admission to Brighton Road with mother in Gordon Road w/hse I can see what looks like a Rosina Church in Gordon Road

Southwark Camberwell, Religious Creed, Gordon RD W/house Page 36you

Date of entry 4 April 1893

Admission 7 Oct 1892
Discharged 24 June 1893

Vera
Church, Rosina ? 12 Shackmills, C/E, b 1860, self referral

**vera2013** · 03-08-20, 16:16

Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post

there are several entries for Emily church at this place, Brighton Road School:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2374043

says mother is in Gordon Road House, Camberwell. Look like these records are not on line?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/N13816972

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2284195

brother mentioned in last link.
none say mothers name or her dob, so could be wrong.

I assume the school must be on the census 1891

mmm dates not matching for Emily's admission and Rosina's discharge. Will see if Rosina was 're-admitted to workhouse.

vera

**vera2013** · 03-08-20, 16:38

Couple of extra entries for 1893

Page 40

Admitted from Sutton School

23 June 1893

Richard Church b 1882

Emily b 1884

Discharged to mother 25 July 1893

Admitted 26 July 1893

Church Rosina self ref from Casual Ward
Richard
Emily discharged Sutton School 25 July 1893

So who is Richard. Perhaps not the right family.

Vera

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