Lily Wheeler (nee Baker)

[cbcarolyn]

It might be right and one of Lilly's children has Gertrude in her name - that is often a good sign.

[Darksecretz]

Just been given a newspaper clipping that shows the closing of the Rising Sun. Not sure if this is the Lily I am researching, maybe it was somewhere that she worked, or from 'treading the boards' Still can't find anything on the 1939 census at present.

I was also intrigued by Gertrude Baker 'visiting' Eliza on the 1911 census. I don't have them in my tree, so not sure where this one fits in.

I think that this could be a good lead... why would you have it unless it was family related? [just thinking out loud]

[teasie]

Coming late to the party on this, but you mention the daughters being placed in the St Josephs Home - when was this, and what records have you been able to obtain?

I'm assuming that this is the place? http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/Bir...h/?LMCL=TDHYU1

https://www.mercyhandsworth.co.uk/ar...-heritage.html

[cbcarolyn]

I thought I was onto something there - Arthur John Baker and Lily (Lillian) May Baker, on reg of electors in 1920s, but says she was on there on the strength of her husband occupation - so assume they are married.

Silver Street, Moseley

Could she have the vote based on her 'estranged' husband? then I guess she would have to use wheeeler

[JMTaylor]

Lily was definitely still with the family in 1911 as this shows on the census.
The 3 girls were put into St Joseph's RC Home and were admitted on October 7th 1912
George (dad) appears to have kept in contact with them and left money to Florence (eldest) in his will.
The stories are from close family, but I can not verify them, hence searching for Lily
The 1901 census shows George and Lily living next door to Samuel (Lilys brother)

[Darksecretz]

Morning Jane,

Do you know what lily's act was? did she sing or do something else? I did wonder if Lily May was her stage name.

I'm just having a think and a drink. Presumably you have Lilys b/cert? [this is just purely for absolute confirmation that you are solid in your findings]

I think like Carolyn said we need to track all of the family first just to see if she was living with them.

I guess that Georges Admon was just what it said in the probate and nothing else? no codicil or will attached?

[teasie]

The 3 girls were put into St Joseph's RC Home and were admitted on October 7th 1912

The stories are from close family, but I can not verify them, hence searching for Lily

In post #43 I gave a link to the Sisters of Mercy Archives (The Sisters of Mercy ran the St Josephs Home) - have you tried contacting them to see if they hold any records, which may or may not include information about Lily?

Jenny Smith, Archivist
Union of the Sisters of Mercy GB Archives
St Mary's Convent
98 Hunters Road
Handsworth
Birmingham
B19 1EB
Email:- archives@mercyhandsworth.org.uk

[JMTaylor]

Hi,

I have contacted the archivist and she gave me the admission date, but did not have any other information relating to the family. Although she did mention the following;

It is not clear what the situation was with the Wheelers, however if they did come to St Joseph's through the Boards of Guardians, it might be worth contacting Birmingham Archives to see if they have any relevant Boards of Guardians papers for Birmingham at this time that might give an indication of the circumstances of the Wheeler children before and/or after their time at St Joseph's

I think that I need to sit down (for a long time) and work my way through this part of the family. I do have some copy documents, but it also looks like I need to order a few more. They are so close to me, yet so far away!

[cbcarolyn]

I did start looking yesterday, but not returned to it, this is what I have so far:
James Baker b 1843 Brass finisher Parents Morris & Eliza
Married 2 Sep 1867
Sarah Beardmore

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...65&usePUB=true


They had
Eliza Jane 1868
Daughter ? 1870 on census? Assume that this child died – so have not investigated
Arthur John 1871
Alfred 1874
Lily 1878
Samuel 1880
Albert 1882
Ernest 1883

1871
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/WARRG10_3128_3131-0138?pId=15523618

1881 Piece 3002 Folio 30 Page number 5 Brearley St
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/WARRG11_2999_3003-0897?pId=22444824

Not found 1891 or 1901 for any family

Lily 1901 (there are Wheelers next door that I assume are family – not checked)
Piece: 2890 Folio: 61 Page Number: 18 Parliament Street
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/WARRG13_2890_2891-0123?pId=16725465

Arthur Baker a boarder I assume to be the brother

1911 Tower Street
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_18083_0371_03?pId=21899641

marriage
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/4994/images/40458_316789-00069?pId=52957314

George Wheeler also a brass worker
There is a Samuel Baker that marries an Emma – but can’t be sure he is the right one.
There is a death in 1899 for James Baker
Not found deaths for any of the others
Can’t understand why 1891 or 1901 census not easily found for Sarah or any child, must be there!

[JMTaylor]

Hi Carolyn,

Many thanks for the research you have done - much appreciated. I've made some notes based on the information you provided;

I did start looking yesterday, but not returned to it, this is what I have so far:
James Baker b 1843 Brass finisher Parents Morris & Eliza I don’t have a Birth Cert. for James. On the 1851 census he is shown as 5 years old and would therefore be born in 1846 abt.
His fathers name changes between Maurice and Morris
Married 2 Sep 1867
Sarah Beardmore Some children have the name BEADMORE (*)

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...65&usePUB=true


They had
Eliza Jane 1868
Daughter ? 1870 on census? Assume that this child died – so have not investigated
Arthur John 1871
Alfred 1874 – 1 potential death
Lily 1878 (*)
Samuel 1880
Albert 1882 – 3 potential deaths
Ernest 1883 (*) – 2 potential deaths.

I also have a son called James, born 1876 (S Qtr Birmingham 06D 182) Died in 1881. Need certificates to prove

1871
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/WARRG10_3128_3131-0138?pId=15523618
Looking at the formation of the letters could this be Miney / Minney? I had overlooked this. Have done some quick online checks and found the following from BMD;
Minnie Maria MAR 1870 Aston 6d 291 (GRO has MMN as JENNENS) dies SEPT 1870 Aston 6d 198
Minnie DEC 1871 Birmingham 6d 180 (GRO has MMN as PRICE) dies DEC 1872 6d 121

I also found this on ancestry - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ource%3DSearch

1881 Piece 3002 Folio 30 Page number 5 Brearley St
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/WARRG11_2999_3003-0897?pId=22444824

Not found 1891 or 1901 for any family

Lily 1901 (there are Wheelers next door that I assume are family – not checked) Samuel is Lily’s brother
Piece: 2890 Folio: 61 Page Number: 18 Parliament Street
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/WARRG13_2890_2891-0123?pId=16725465

Arthur Baker a boarder I assume to be the brother I would also assume this

1911 Tower Street
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_18083_0371_03?pId=21899641

marriage
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/4994/images/40458_316789-00069?pId=52957314

George Wheeler also a brass worker
There is a Samuel Baker that marries an Emma – but can’t be sure he is the right one. I have him marrying Emma Roe (b 1881) married 13.08.1900
There is a death in 1899 for James Baker I have the same, therefore he would not appear on the 1891 or 1901 census
Not found deaths for any of the others
Can’t understand why 1891 or 1901 census not easily found for Sarah or any child, must be there! Just had another look and cannot find anything. Could they have gone into a workhouse / hospital etc?

[cbcarolyn]

I didn't bother to investigate child deaths as was concentrating on try to find Lily going forward. But it could well be Minnie, and nice to complete all the records. along with James.

Father should be on 1891 if it his death in 1899

I couldn't be sure that the marriage for Samuel was correct as I only had name and age to go on, father says deceased that does fit with the 1899 death.

Will have a search later.

[teasie]

1891 at Court 9 House 4 Brearley Street, Birmingham
James Baker 48 Brass Dresser
Sarah Baker 47 Paper Box Maker
Eliza 23
Lilian 14
Arthur J 20 Brass Dresser

Transcribed as Baber: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=11544058

[teasie]

As Samuel isn't on the 1891 census, this may be his death:

BAKER, SAMUEL aged 1 GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 81

[teasie]

Are you sure that Eliza Barnes is yours? it says her father is a miller
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...1_172214596483

I'm not convinced that this is the right marriage either.

The marriage was at Bidford which is also her PoB per the census, and witnesses were James Thomas Baker and Agnes Baker, neither of which seem to fit with this family

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2445/images/4292001_00758?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=suT45644&_phstart=successSource&pId=9279879

[JMTaylor]

Hi Teasie,

Thanks for finding the 1891 electoral roll, really brings it home how an easy transcribing mistake can mean you don't find the document. How did you find it?

I will need to see if the death of Samuel is correct as I had him married with children - but not backed up by source docs.

I am also beginning to think that the Eliza Baker / Barnes marriage is wrong

This forum is great, and I am learning so much

[cbcarolyn]

1891 at Court 9 House 4 Brearley Street, Birmingham
James Baker 48 Brass Dresser
Sarah Baker 47 Paper Box Maker
Eliza 23
Lilian 14
Arthur J 20 Brass Dresser

Transcribed as Baber: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=11544058

Phew - I knew you would find it - not sure why I couldn't, puts a better perspective on Samuel marriage as well that I wasn't too sure on. Not looking good for the other young boys either then :(

As Samuel isn't on the 1891 census, this may be his death:

BAKER, SAMUEL aged 1 GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 81

I'm not convinced that this is the right marriage either.

The marriage was at Bidford which is also her PoB per the census, and witnesses were James Thomas Baker and Agnes Baker, neither of which seem to fit with this family

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=9279879

too many wrong things about it for me, and way away from Birmingham, so Gertrude is a red herring.

[teasie]

Hi Teasie,

Thanks for finding the 1891 electoral roll, really brings it home how an easy transcribing mistake can mean you don't find the document. How did you find it?

I searched for Sarah B*er, husband James, and the known surviving children Eliza, Arthur & Lily, and it was the first on the list.

Not doing so well finding Sarah in 1901 though, unless she changed occupations or had died (I haven't looked for deaths)

[cbcarolyn]

JMTaylor the 1891 is a census and not electoral roll. Electoral rolls are not so useful for women until more recent times as they were not eligible to vote.

so depending on status they were only included from 1920s, all women over 21(I think) were on there from 1929

[cbcarolyn]

Well my theory of tracing the rest of the family could be a dead end, as sadly looks as though the boys didn't make it to 1891.

An outside chance that Alfred had left home.

I do like the Idea of Lily May or something like being her stage name as suggested by Darksecretz

JMTaylor when you say you were handed an article about the pub closing, is this because it was in family possession?

[Darksecretz]

Can we have a list of all children please I'm kinda getting a bit lost. And are there any more to track?

That was a good find re Minnie's baptism Jane, I presume that she must have died? haven't looked for a death yet. I guess it depends just how far you want to expand on the family. I like to explore every little twig and branch, but others are more focussed and like to track just the main grandparents/grt grandparents etc... others simply track the male line, I like to think that I have been as thorough as I possibly can be.

I did note that on the 1871 census that there are 3 Baker families all living really close to one another, Isaac could possibly be Maurice/Morris's brother?