The elusive Sam Harvey Holt

[Lscan]

Are we following the right path - I'm confused. He can't be on two 1871 censuses unless he had two 'wives'.
What info can you give us from his marriage cert at Atherstone to your grandmother - age, his occupation and marriage status, witnesses etc etc
Where were they on the 1901 and 1911 census so we can move backwards instead of forward from early 1800's. Do you have Samuel's birth certificate?
He has gone from whitesmith to travelling salesman. I'm not convinced that Eliza Chambers was is part of the picture. Mary Ann Morry is more convincing.

Edit - I meant Samuel's Baptism not birth cert.

On the wedding certificate he was 60 yrs old, was a widower and an engine fitter. The service took place September 1890, his father was Richard and classed as a farmer. The witnesses were Elizabeth and ? Henry Sayer. On the 1891 census they were living in Atherstone with Elizabeth’s children and on the 1901 they had moved back to Lancashire, Warrington living still with Elizabeth and her son. Through out he seems to be whitesmith, blacksmith engine fitter. I do think he Married Mary Ann in 1853, and wonder if she died? I cannot find them on any future census.
The other Sam and Mary Ann are I think another couple as there were two Samuel Holts born in Heywood just a couple of years apart, helpfully their fathers had different names, mine being Richard. Thanks for your help.

[cbcarolyn]

I did post this death

https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/research-advice/family-history-research/1297043-the-elusive-sam-harvey-holt?p=1297194#post1297194

[Lscan]

Lascan can you please post the details of the marriage of Elizabeth Phillips to Samuel Holt 1890 Atherstone, Warwicks. Unfortunately not on Ancestry Parish records. Thanks

Vera

Hi the marriage is on Ancestry but he’s listed under the name Sam Harvey Holte, try that.

[teasie]

I do think he Married Mary Ann in 1853, and wonder if she died? I cannot find them on any future census.

Lscan, I think perhaps you need to read the entire thread again. There was a potential death posted for Mary Ann, which I think is correct (I think it was 1877 in Chorlton).

There is also a general consensus that Samuel married Mary Ann in 1853, but met Eliza Chambers when they were living in York and had a family with her too. Therefore Options 1 and 2 on post #27 are likely to BOTH relate to him.

[cbcarolyn]

Is this the theory in a nutshell?

Samuel Holt marries Mary Ann Morry (various spellings) 8 Feb 1853 in Wigan
Has 5 children

• Ann Elizabeth 1860
• Samuel 1862
• Oswin 1869
• Joseph Henry 1871
• Edward Arthur 1876

In 1861 they are living in York
He then meets (whilst in York) Eliza Chambers and has
3 Children in Lichfield & Leamington areas

• James Harvey 1867
• Sam Chambers 1870
• Richard Harvey 1871 (dies in Canada)

Mary Ann possible death 1877 (children are without parents in 1881)
Eliza death 1891
He then marries Elizabeth Kitham (Phillips) in 1890
Lives with her and her stepchildren last address is 1901 in Warrington

Death not found? She is buried in St Helens

[teasie]

Is this the theory in a nutshell?

Samuel Holt marries Mary Ann Morry (various spellings) 8 Feb 1853 in Wigan
Has 5 children

• Ann Elizabeth 1860
• Samuel 1862
• Oswin 1869
• Joseph Henry 1871
• Edward Arthur 1876

In 1861 they are living in York
He then meets (whilst in York) Eliza Chambers and has
3 Children in Lichfield & Leamington areas

• James Harvey 1867
• Sam Chambers 1870
• Richard Harvey 1871 (dies in Canada)

Mary Ann possible death 1877 (children are without parents in 1881)
Eliza death 1891
He then marries Elizabeth Kitham (Phillips) in 1890
Lives with her and her stepchildren last address is 1901 in Warrington

Death not found? She is buried in St Helens

Yes, except I think the birth & death of Richard Sam Chambers Holt in London in 1863 may also be a child of Sam & Eliza

[cbcarolyn]

Just found this:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/Collec...dNumber=457933

holt.JPG

next of kin Aunt? Mrs Shaw 25 Sudeley St, Kemptown, Brighton

[Lscan]

I think I may also have found Eliza Chambers in 1841 - 1861 and its very exciting!

Baptism at Beverley, St John 16 Apr 1834 Eliza d/o Ann Eliza Chambers of Minster Moorgate, Singlewoman
Baptism at Hull 30 Jun 1837 Emma Jane d/o Ann Eliza Chambers (transcription only)

1841 Census at Lowther Street, St Crux, York
Ann Chambers 25 not born in County
Eliza 7 - born in County
Emma 6 - born in County

1851 Census at Peaseholme, York HO107 2355 112 40
Ann E Corner 39 widow born Lincolnshire (can't see a marriage to a Mr Corner though!)
Elizabeth Chambers daur 17 b Hull
Emma Chambers 16 b Beverley

1861 Census at St Johns Terrace, St Lawrence, York RG9 3553 125 26
Ann Elizth Corner 49 widow Dressmaker born Normanby, Lincolnshire
Eliza Corner 27 Milliner born Beverley

The 1861 census for Samuel & Mary Ann places him in..... York! (RG09 3552 92 4)

Samuel's address is George Street, York
Eliza's address is St John's Terrace, with the next Street being Paragon Street
If you look them up on a modern map they are almost on top of each other - 0.2 miles!

ADDED: If this old map locks in position, you'll see George Street right in the middle, heading down. Towards the bottom left you'll see St John's Terrace. Yikes, they're close! https://yorkmaps.net/1852/#17.3/53.954195/-1.075147

The 'two families' theory is looking more likely - we know Samuel was already married to Mary Ann, and we can't find any marriage between Samuel & Eliza Chambers, but we can place them just a few hundred yards from each other in York!

Just as a PS - Emma Jane Chambers married William Richard Shaw in 1862 in Sculcoates, claiming her father was Francis Chambers, Cabinet Maker. In 1871 they are in Worksop, Nottingham, with William Shaw noted as an Ironmonger & Whitesmith Master employing 2 men & 2 apprentices

PPS - I'm back to being interested in this birth as well - unfortunately his burial didn't give the names of the parents (see post #14)
HOLT, RICHARD SAM CHAMBERS mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in CLERKENWELL Volume 01B Page 599

WOW, good research there I think. It puts a whole new slant on things, So if this is Sam no 2 where the heck is my Sam?

[Janet in Yorkshire]

#55 " Emma Jane Chambers married William Richard Shaw in 1862 in Sculcoates, claiming her father was Francis Chambers, Cabinet Maker. In 1871 they are in Worksop, Nottingham, with William Shaw noted as an Ironmonger & Whitesmith Master employing 2 men & 2 apprentices"

?? Aunt of Richard Harvey Holt #67

Full service record can be downloaded & viewed details unmarried, both parents deceased, aunt Mrs E J Shaw - I haven't read it all! Says he's 47/48, so year of birth out on 1st page, has been amended to 20 years later.

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/...&id=B4469-S051

Jay

[Lscan]

I have Richard Harvey Holts death, 1871-1910 died if urinery problems. He was only 5ft in, just thought I’d add that. The official document names Sam and Eliza.

[cbcarolyn]

WOW, good research there I think. It puts a whole new slant on things, So if this is Sam no 2 where the heck is my Sam?

what do you mean? This is your Sam

see post 66 https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...97#post1297297

[Lscan]

Sorry that should read 1871-1947 he died at Hurdmans Bridge Carleton Canada.

[cbcarolyn]

#55 " Emma Jane Chambers married William Richard Shaw in 1862 in Sculcoates, claiming her father was Francis Chambers, Cabinet Maker. In 1871 they are in Worksop, Nottingham, with William Shaw noted as an Ironmonger & Whitesmith Master employing 2 men & 2 apprentices"

?? Aunt of Richard Harvey Holt #67

Full service record can be downloaded & viewed details unmarried, both parents deceased, aunt Mrs Shaw - I haven't read it all!

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/...&id=B4469-S051

Jay

doh - read and forgot, sorry - well that ties him in nicely anyway

[Lscan]

what do you mean? This is your Sam

see post 66 https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...97#post1297297

I’ve been looking at two Sams for so long now, I think it’s going to take a while to get my head around it. I was convinced that the traveller Sam was born a couple of years later, father Charles and he had all the children. Just ignore me I need to digest it all. Exciting but shocking.

[cbcarolyn]

#55 " Emma Jane Chambers married William Richard Shaw in 1862 in Sculcoates, claiming her father was Francis Chambers, Cabinet Maker. In 1871 they are in Worksop, Nottingham, with William Shaw noted as an Ironmonger & Whitesmith Master employing 2 men & 2 apprentices"

?? Aunt of Richard Harvey Holt #67

Full service record can be downloaded & viewed details unmarried, both parents deceased, aunt Mrs E J Shaw - I haven't read it all! Says he's 47/48, so year of birth out on 1st page, has been amended to 20 years later.

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/...&id=B4469-S051

Jay

Just wandered down all the records, can see the trip to Ashbourne mentioned, seems to have been in hospital - maybe not relation at all. I guess he could be estranged from father, but could also mean as aunt is next of kin that Samuel no longer around?

holt1.JPG

[Lscan]

Well can I just say my head is spinning with all this information, WOW. I’ve been trawling through the archives for weeks, and you’ve solved the mystery of Sam Harvey Holt in a couple of days! I must say I never expected this outcome, as you can probably tell I’m struggling to take it all in. Thank you to everyone who contributed and especially to teasie you’ve got some extraordinary knowledge there.

[teasie]

I see that Elizabeth died in 1911 - do you have her death certificate, and was she a widow? Im intrigued by what happened to him!

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Lscan, If you go into this site and register (it's free to use) then you can look up a birth registration and discover the mother's maiden name. That helps to determine which couple a child belongs to.

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B4469-S051

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Just wandered down all the records, can see the trip to Ashbourne mentioned, seems to have been in hospital - maybe not relation at all. I guess he could be estranged from father, but could also mean as aunt is next of kin that Samuel no longer around?

holt1.JPG

Carolyn see #73. In the army records he states that both his mother and his father are dead.

Jay

[cbcarolyn]

Carolyn see #73. In the army records he states that both his mother and his father are dead.

Jay

I did wonder if he would say that if he was estranged? Then he wouldn't put him as next of kin? He was quite old anyway by that time so very likely!