The elusive Sam Harvey Holt

[Lscan]

Yes easy to mix up, this Samuel was born in Heywood but in 1833; my Sam was 1831, I think they both married a Mary Ann just to confuse me in later years ?
My Sam had a daughter Ada (I’ve found this today) in 1854, a year after marriage. But I can’t find any other details for her apart from her baptism, which apparently was private. Could this mean that she was poorly and maybe died?? Samuel was listed as a blacksmith so that too fits.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Edit - sorry, I see this info was posted on #19!

Annie was baptised in 1865 at the age of 5, parents Samuel and Mary Ann of Church St Heywood - he is a Smith (not a whitesmith). I agree that traveller means he was a journeyman smith, not a commercial traveller.

OC

[teasie]

My Sam had a daughter Ada (I’ve found this today) in 1854, a year after marriage. But I can’t find any other details for her apart from her baptism, which apparently was private. Could this mean that she was poorly and maybe died?? Samuel was listed as a blacksmith so that too fits.

I don't think you can say this with 100% certainty. A Samuel Holt & Mary Ann Murray/Morrey had a daughter named Ada. He might be 'your' Samuel, he might not. He certainly wasn't using the middle name Harvey at that point, whereas the man who had children with Eliza Chambers definitely did, and was also a whitesmith.

Ada Holt of Hulme, aged 10 weeks was buried 5 Feb 1854 at Rusholme Road Cemetery, Chorlton Upon Medlock, Cause of death was convulsions.

I've been out all afternoon but I was also pondering on the possibility that Sam/Samuel was on the 1871 census twice and had somehow managed to have two families in two different towns, but I still haven't come to a conclusion on that - it's certainly a tempting thought!

[vera2013]

Lascan can you please post the details of the marriage of Elizabeth Phillips to Samuel Holt 1890 Atherstone, Warwicks. Unfortunately not on Ancestry Parish records. Thanks

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

Yes easy to mix up, this Samuel was born in Heywood but in 1833; my Sam was 1831, I think they both married a Mary Ann just to confuse me in later years ?
My Sam had a daughter Ada (I’ve found this today) in 1854, a year after marriage. But I can’t find any other details for her apart from her baptism, which apparently was private. Could this mean that she was poorly and maybe died?? Samuel was listed as a blacksmith so that too fits.

can you share the information of both the marriages please.

I have seen another Samuel born in Heap, Heywood is this what you are referring?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Samuel Holt, bp 1833 at Hope Street Baptist, Rochdale. Parents Ralph Holt and Sarah Ormerod, of Heap, BURY (not Heywood). Ralph is a mason.

OC

[Katarzyna]

Edit - sorry, I see this info was posted on #19!

Annie was baptised in 1865 at the age of 5, parents Samuel and Mary Ann of Church St Heywood - he is a Smith (not a whitesmith). I agree that traveller means he was a journeyman smith, not a commercial traveller.

OC

1871 census
In this case he was a traveller (commercial) according to the enumerator. He is not very consistent about his POB either.

holt 1871.JPG

[Olde Crone Holden]

Kat

I think the enumerator assumed he was a commercial traveller. My money is on him being a journeyman. But I could be wrong!

OC

[Katarzyna]

Perhaps Sam had his best suit on then, OC.

[cbcarolyn]

Option 1 has him as whitesmith, i am with OC that commercial is just a slip of the pen.

is there a death of Samuel ? Have I missed it.

[teasie]

These are the two baptisms at St Luke, Heywood. We know from earlier posts that Samuel's father on his marriage to Elizabeth Phillips was named Richard. The Samuel who married Mary Ann in 1853 also had a father named Richard (deceased).

29 May 1831 Samuel s/o Richard & Ann Holt of Heywood, Shopkeeper
26 May 1833 Samuel s/o Charles & Alice Holt of Heady Hill, Weaver

Other children baptised to Richard & Ann:
James (1814) Ralph (1815) Anne (1817) – Richard was a Weaver of Bamford
Ellen (1819) Richard (1821) John (1823) Mary (1825) Esther (1827) Edward (1829) Robert (1833) and Jane (1834)

In 1841 Richard, Ann & family are at Church Street, Heap: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLY-L4P

Richard Holt was buried at Heywood in 1850 aged 61, which in with the 'Richard Holt, Deceased' on the 1853 marriage of Samuel & Mary Ann.

[teasie]

For what it's worth, I've found Eliza (Chambers) Holt in 1891 in Milverton, Warwick as a Nurse in the household of William H Stokes, Clerk in Holy Orders - RG12 HO73 94 40

Eliza Holt 56 Married, Nurse Domestic born Beverley (transcribed on FMP as Eliza Holl b Bewerley)

It looks like she died later the same year: HOLT, ELIZA aged 58 GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 367

[cbcarolyn]

Richard Harvey Holt made a visit to the Uk:

Leaving

Richard H Holt

26 Sep 1919

dob 29 Nov 1871

47

New York, New York, USA

Mauretania

He stayed in Ashbourne Derbys, with the Smiths

arrival

Richard H Holt

48

dob abt 1871

St John, New Brunswick, Canada

4 Mar 1919

Liverpool, England

Metagama

Canadian Pacific Line

Dob matches - not sure if he is visiting family, and would tie in?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...sePUBJs%3Dtrue

[cbcarolyn]

For what it's worth, I've found Eliza (Chambers) Holt in 1891 in Milverton, Warwick as a Nurse in the household of William H Stokes, Clerk in Holy Orders - RG12 HO73 94 40

Eliza Holt 56 Married, Nurse Domestic born Beverley (transcribed on FMP as Eliza Holl b Bewerley)

It looks like she died later the same year: HOLT, ELIZA aged 58 GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 367

in 1881 and 1891 she is 'married' and yet no husband, certainly looking fishy!

[teasie]

I think I may also have found Eliza Chambers in 1841 - 1861 and its very exciting!

Baptism at Beverley, St John 16 Apr 1834 Eliza d/o Ann Eliza Chambers of Minster Moorgate, Singlewoman
Baptism at Hull 30 Jun 1837 Emma Jane d/o Ann Eliza Chambers (transcription only)

1841 Census at Lowther Street, St Crux, York
Ann Chambers 25 not born in County
Eliza 7 - born in County
Emma 6 - born in County

1851 Census at Peaseholme, York HO107 2355 112 40
Ann E Corner 39 widow born Lincolnshire (can't see a marriage to a Mr Corner though!)
Elizabeth Chambers daur 17 b Hull
Emma Chambers 16 b Beverley

1861 Census at St Johns Terrace, St Lawrence, York RG9 3553 125 26
Ann Elizth Corner 49 widow Dressmaker born Normanby, Lincolnshire
Eliza Corner 27 Milliner born Beverley

The 1861 census for Samuel & Mary Ann places him in..... York! (RG09 3552 92 4)

Samuel's address is George Street, York
Eliza's address is St John's Terrace, with the next Street being Paragon Street
If you look them up on a modern map they are almost on top of each other - 0.2 miles!

ADDED: If this old map locks in position, you'll see George Street right in the middle, heading down. Towards the bottom left you'll see St John's Terrace. Yikes, they're close! https://yorkmaps.net/1852/#17.3/53.954195/-1.075147

The 'two families' theory is looking more likely - we know Samuel was already married to Mary Ann, and we can't find any marriage between Samuel & Eliza Chambers, but we can place them just a few hundred yards from each other in York!

Just as a PS - Emma Jane Chambers married William Richard Shaw in 1862 in Sculcoates, claiming her father was Francis Chambers, Cabinet Maker. In 1871 they are in Worksop, Nottingham, with William Shaw noted as an Ironmonger & Whitesmith Master employing 2 men & 2 apprentices

PPS - I'm back to being interested in this birth as well - unfortunately his burial didn't give the names of the parents (see post #14)
HOLT, RICHARD SAM CHAMBERS mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in CLERKENWELL Volume 01B Page 599

[Lscan]

I don't think you can say this with 100% certainty. A Samuel Holt & Mary Ann Murray/Morrey had a daughter named Ada. He might be 'your' Samuel, he might not. He certainly wasn't using the middle name Harvey at that point, whereas the man who had children with Eliza Chambers definitely did, and was also a whitesmith.

Ada Holt of Hulme, aged 10 weeks was buried 5 Feb 1854 at Rusholme Road Cemetery, Chorlton Upon Medlock, Cause of death was convulsions.

I've been out all afternoon but I was also pondering on the possibility that Sam/Samuel was on the 1871 census twice and had somehow managed to have two families in two different towns, but I still haven't come to a conclusion on that - it's certainly a tempting thought!

How exciting, I do hope that’s the outcome. Thank you for the details about Ada, how did you find that information? I’m going to look again at this other family, I must admit I’d discounted them and concentrated on ‘my Sam’

[Lscan]

I can't readily see a marriage between Sam & Eliza, although an Eliza Chambers married John Brownsho in 1856 in Beverley

I think this Eliza Chambers can be discarded as John and Eliza Browsho (sic) and their children were resident in Beverley in census returns 1861, 1871 & 1881. Also, this Eliza was born in Halifax (1861 & 1871, 1881 states Barnsley) not Beverley.

Jay

Yes it’s very easy to be mixed up, as soon as you put Beverley into the location it automatically brings up Yorkshire and not Lemington. Thanks for trying.

[cbcarolyn]

Wow - that is a find. teasie

When it was looking likely that it was same man 2 families, I automatically assumed, each didn't know about the other, but of course it is likely that Eliza Chambers would know, if only we could go back in time and talk to the people. She would put married on the census, even if she wasn't.

I wonder why she ended up in Leamington.

[Katarzyna]

That's brilliant work Teasie I think we all knew in our hearts that it would turn out like this - two families. There were just too many coincidences.
I still cannot find Sam on the 1881 census anywhere in UK. I looked last night for ages trying all different combinations of his name. I'm wondering if he went to Canada/ USA for a few years.
Ewd. Arthur Holt b 1877 Manchester appears to be his last child and he married Elizabeth in 1890 so max 13 years missing.
Where the heck was he???

Oswin was born 1869 and left for Canada 1884 - He would only have been about 15. I wonder if he followed /been in touch with his father?

Post# 20 Teasie
"ADDED: Just in case the above family is correct, there is an advert in the Manchester Times 7 July 1893:
HOLT – Tidings are earnestly sought by his brother and sister, of Oswin Holt, who left Manchester about nine years ago for Canada, and was last heard of in St Louis, Missouri, about three years since. Address A & S Holt, 9 Whitworth Street, Longsight, Manchester"

[cbcarolyn]

I did have a wander around Canada last night too on Ancestry library edition and was interested to see that Richard did come back for a visit, excitement short lived as I have no idea who he visited!

The fact that the children were all together in 1881, he may have been sending money back