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    The elusive Sam Harvey Holt

    Hi everyone, I’m new to this site never been on any sort of forum before, so please bear with me. I’ve been researching for some years now and as I’m sure we all have, I’ve got a few brick walls. The one I’ve been chipping away at for the longest is Samuel Holt born Heywood Lancashire 1831. I Located his birth, found him on the 41, 51 and 61 Census, all on home turf. Then I lost him until 1900 when he married my widowed great grandmother, in Atherstone Warwickshire. Where had he been for the last thirty years? He didn’t join the forces, I’ve checked newspapers, I found a few convictions but cannot be sure it’s definitely him, and thy were only minor. And although he’s described as a widower on the marriage certificate I can’t find any wedding, and believe me I’ve looked for hours. But the main problem is why would he start calling himself Sam Harvey Holt/e? Was he hiding something, new area new name?
    Help, I just don’t know where else to look.
    Thanks in anticipation

    #2
    Is the year of marriage you quote (1900) correct? Sam Harvey Holte married Elizabeth Phillips in 1890, Atherstone.

    In 1891 he is in Atherstone, aged 69, with wife Elizabeth and stepchildren with the surname Phillips - RG12 Piece 2443 Folio 57 Page 16

    By 1901 he is in Warrington, but is only 60!

    Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate confirming his father's name to be sure that the 1831 baptism is the correct one?

    In 1871 I think he is at Chandas Street, Leamington Priors, Warwick - RG10 Piece 3195 Folio 31 Page 6
    Sam Holt 39 Whitesmith born Liverpool
    Eliza Holt 37 born Beverley Minster Moorgate (?)
    James Harvey Holt 4 b Lichfield, Staffordshire
    Sam Chambers Holt 1 born Wakefield

    HOLT, JAMES HARVEY mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in LICHFIELD Volume 06B Page 367
    HOLT, SAM CHAMBERS mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in WAKEFIELD UNION Volume 09C Page 32


    Baptised at Beverley, St John 16 Apr 1834 Eliza d/o Ann Eliza Chambers of Minster Moorgate, Singlewoman

    I can't readily see a marriage between Sam & Eliza, although an Eliza Chambers married John Brownsho in 1856 in Beverley

    Comment


      #3
      I'm not sure where Sam/Samuel is in 1881, but Eliza is with the children in Leamington
      Eliza Holt 49 Married Charwoman b Beverley
      James H Holt 14 Civil Service GPO born Lichfield
      Samuel C Holt 11 b Wakefield
      Richard H 9 b Leamington

      HOLT, RICHARD HARVEY mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 543

      Comment


        #4
        Hi and thank you very much for replying. I do have a copy of the marriage certificate in 1990 in Atherstone, and yes his father was definitely Richard. I have seen all the Lemington information but don’t feel 100% that this is my Sam as he was listed as being born in Liverpool??? And why the change of name? I’ve searched intensively for a marriage and there just isn’t one. And where is he on the 81 Census, ans on Eliza’s death? I did find a probably marriage in 1853 in Wigan, spouse Mary Ann Morry, but cannot find any relevant census records to back this up???

        Comment


          #5
          Sorry but I’ve just got my head on this morning - in which record does it say he was born Liverpool?

          Comment


            #6
            Hi, on the 71 Census in Liverpool.

            Comment


              #7
              I can't readily see a marriage between Sam & Eliza, although an Eliza Chambers married John Brownsho in 1856 in Beverley

              I think this Eliza Chambers can be discarded as John and Eliza Browsho (sic) and their children were resident in Beverley in census returns 1861, 1871 & 1881. Also, this Eliza was born in Halifax (1861 & 1871, 1881 states Barnsley) not Beverley.

              Jay
              Janet in Yorkshire



              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by teasie View Post
                Is the year of marriage you quote (1900) correct? Sam Harvey Holte married Elizabeth Phillips in 1890, Atherstone.

                In 1891 he is in Atherstone, aged 69, with wife Elizabeth and stepchildren with the surname Phillips - RG12 Piece 2443 Folio 57 Page 16

                By 1901 he is in Warrington, but is only 60!

                Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate confirming his father's name to be sure that the 1831 baptism is the correct one?

                In 1871 I think he is at Chandas Street, Leamington Priors, Warwick - RG10 Piece 3195 Folio 31 Page 6
                Sam Holt 39 Whitesmith born Liverpool
                Eliza Holt 37 born Beverley Minster Moorgate (?)
                James Harvey Holt 4 b Lichfield, Staffordshire
                Sam Chambers Holt 1 born Wakefield

                HOLT, JAMES HARVEY mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in LICHFIELD Volume 06B Page 367
                HOLT, SAM CHAMBERS mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in WAKEFIELD UNION Volume 09C Page 32


                Baptised at Beverley, St John 16 Apr 1834 Eliza d/o Ann Eliza Chambers of Minster Moorgate, Singlewoman

                I can't readily see a marriage between Sam & Eliza, although an Eliza Chambers married John Brownsho in 1856 in Beverley
                The Eliza Chambers who married John Browsho 18 1856 was born Halifax 1827 and is with John on 1861 - 1881 censuses.
                Name: Eliza Chambers
                Gender: Female
                Marriage Date: 19 May 1856
                Marriage Place: St. Mary, Beverley, York, England
                Father: William Chambers
                Spouse: John Browsho
                FHL Film Number: 1566050
                Reference ID: p 10

                1871 census with John Browsho and family in Beverley
                https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...&rhSource=7572

                Edit: Snap Jay - took me longer to write!!
                Last edited by Katarzyna; 24-07-20, 10:09.
                Kat
                https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                Comment


                  #9
                  There was a fashion in Victorian times for adding middle names, particularly if you had a very common or ordinary name, a lot of my family did this to make themselves sound more interesting! In my family, the middle name usually had some significance (to them, if no one else).

                  OC

                  Comment


                    #10
                    1841 Eliza Chambers
                    Name: Eliza Chambers
                    Age: 7
                    Estimated birth year: abt 1834
                    Gender: Female
                    Where born: Warwickshire, England
                    Civil Parish: Leamington Priors
                    County/Island: Warwickshire
                    Registration district: Warwick
                    Sub-registration district: Leamington
                    Piece: 1135
                    Book: 13
                    Folio: 33
                    Page Number: 14
                    Wm Chambers 20 Brick Layer
                    Charlotte Chambers 25
                    Eliza Chambers 7
                    Augusta Chambers 2
                    Henry Chambers 1 Mo

                    1851 census
                    Name: Eliza Chambers
                    Age: 17
                    Estimated birth year: abt 1834
                    Relation: Servant
                    Gender: Female
                    Where born: Leamington, Warwickshire, England

                    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...ntPageIsStart=

                    Edit - however does not fit with this baptism: Baptised at Beverley, St John 16 Apr 1834 Eliza d/o Ann Eliza Chambers of Minster Moorgate, Singlewoman
                    Last edited by Katarzyna; 24-07-20, 10:28.
                    Kat
                    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                      There was a fashion in Victorian times for adding middle names, particularly if you had a very common or ordinary name, a lot of my family did this to make themselves sound more interesting! In my family, the middle name usually had some significance (to them, if no one else).

                      OC
                      My great x3 grandmother was baptised as Celia Ann in 1814.

                      In her father's will, she was Elizabeth Cecilia Ann - her mother's name was Elizabeth.

                      In all census records, she was Ann (or Anne) and Ann is on her gravestone. By the way, I had an old b&w photo of the gravestone but have just found a lovely colour one on findagrave, so thank you for the post!!
                      Caroline
                      Caroline's Family History Pages
                      Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others. Socrates

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Lscan View Post
                        Hi and thank you very much for replying. I do have a copy of the marriage certificate in 1990 in Atherstone, and yes his father was definitely Richard. I have seen all the Lemington information but don’t feel 100% that this is my Sam as he was listed as being born in Liverpool??? And why the change of name? I’ve searched intensively for a marriage and there just isn’t one. And where is he on the 81 Census, ans on Eliza’s death? I did find a probably marriage in 1853 in Wigan, spouse Mary Ann Morry, but cannot find any relevant census records to back this up???
                        Did you follow up any of the children, or at least order one of the birth certificates to see exactly what name is given for the father?

                        Sam Chambers Holt married in 1893 in Sparkbrook, Birmingham and named his father as Sam Harvey Holt

                        Richard Harvey Holt died in 1947 in Canada, and his death cert names his parents as Samuel H Holt & Eliza Chambers

                        The PoB of Liverpool may simply be a copying over error by the enumerator - remember that with the exception of the 1911 census, the information we see is not the original information as written by the householder, its what was copied onto a continuous form by the enumerator. Everything else fits, including his occupation of Whitesmith, the use of the middle name Harvey, and even naming a son Richard after his father.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          1841
                          Wm Chambers 20 Brick Layer
                          Charlotte Chambers 25
                          Eliza Chambers 7
                          Augusta Chambers 2
                          Henry Chambers 1 Mo

                          Of course the relationships are not shown on 1841 census. Perhaps the single mother Ann on the baptism in 1834 was a sister or other relation of Wm Chambers.
                          Kat
                          https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Possibly a complete red herring, but this birth is quite interesting, given the combination of names:

                            HOLT, RICHARD SAM CHAMBERS mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in CLERKENWELL Volume 01B Page 599

                            He was buried at St James, Camden on 11 Mar 1863 aged 14 days.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Lscan View Post
                              Hi, on the 71 Census in Liverpool.
                              Thanks, was getting confused but at that time in the morning my brain is not at it’s best. I had the same kind of night that OC had the night before.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Thank you all for your efforts. I’ve decided to add the 1871 Lemington census information for Sam and Eliza to my tree. I think maybe I was just being over cautious, and I know that sometimes the absolute proof and all the answers just aren’t out there. . As there was a fair bit of petty crime listed in his local area of Lancashire under the name Samuel Holt, I thought I’d maybe try that route more thoroughly. (Any recommendations for favourite court/criminal sites). If he was, or wasn’t married to Eliza I do think he was married before, as Eliza was 35 when their first son was born, very late in those days for a first child 🤔 I’m also going to look again at Mary Ann Morry being his first wife, in 1853. The marriage listing is there, but I can’t find any censuses where it is definitely the two of them. There are many but the future dates eg the 1891census where he is married to my grandmother just don’t add up, he’s either died or still happily married back in Lancashire. Grrrrrrrr!
                                Thanks again for your time and all your help.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                  Is the year of marriage you quote (1900) correct? Sam Harvey Holte married Elizabeth Phillips in 1890, Atherstone.

                                  In 1891 he is in Atherstone, aged 69, with wife Elizabeth and stepchildren with the surname Phillips - RG12 Piece 2443 Folio 57 Page 16

                                  By 1901 he is in Warrington, but is only 60!

                                  Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate confirming his father's name to be sure that the 1831 baptism is the correct one?

                                  In 1871 I think he is at Chandas Street, Leamington Priors, Warwick - RG10 Piece 3195 Folio 31 Page 6
                                  Sam Holt 39 Whitesmith born Liverpool
                                  Eliza Holt 37 born Beverley Minster Moorgate (?)
                                  James Harvey Holt 4 b Lichfield, Staffordshire
                                  Sam Chambers Holt 1 born Wakefield

                                  HOLT, JAMES HARVEY mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in LICHFIELD Volume 06B Page 367
                                  HOLT, SAM CHAMBERS mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in WAKEFIELD UNION Volume 09C Page 32


                                  Baptised at Beverley, St John 16 Apr 1834 Eliza d/o Ann Eliza Chambers of Minster Moorgate, Singlewoman

                                  I can't readily see a marriage between Sam & Eliza, although an Eliza Chambers married John Brownsho in 1856 in Beverley
                                  There is a newspaper article Wakefield Express Sat April 16 1870 top left 2nd page FMP

                                  Obstructing pathway

                                  Samuel Harvey Holt, Smith living Balne Lane

                                  Note last child on 1871 b Wakefield

                                  Vera


                                  Comment


                                    #18

                                    Edit download didn't work

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Lscan View Post
                                      I do think he was married before, as Eliza was 35 when their first son was born, very late in those days for a first child 🤔 I’m also going to look again at Mary Ann Morry being his first wife, in 1853. The marriage listing is there, but I can’t find any censuses where it is definitely the two of them.
                                      I think I may have found him with Mary Ann in 1861, transcribed as HOLL and living in York - RG09 3552 92 4

                                      Samuel Holt 28 Whitesmith Journeyman b Hewood Lancashire
                                      Mary Ann Holt wife 27 b Manchester
                                      Ann Holt 4½* b Manchester (*see Added info)

                                      Unfortunately I can't find a birth registration for Ann :/

                                      ADDED: On looking again, I think it might be meant to say 4 months, and there is this baptism in Heywood:

                                      30 Apr 1865 (born 4 Dec 1860) Annie d/o Samuel & Mary Ann Holt, Smith, Church Street

                                      ADDED: A bit of a long shot as the details don't completely match, but as they were in nearby York in 1861 this could be a possible for Ann/Annie's birth:

                                      HOLT, ANNIE mmn MARRY GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in HUNSLET Volume 09B Page 306

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        IF the above birth is correct, then could this be Samuel in 1871?

                                        RG10 Piece 4032 Folio 26 Page 46
                                        Samuel Holt 43 Commercial Traveller b Leeds
                                        Mary Ann Holt 34 wife b Manchester
                                        Anne 11 b Leeds
                                        Samuel 9 b Manchester
                                        Oswin 2 b Manchester


                                        HOLT, SAMUEL mmn MORRAY GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 486
                                        HOLT, OSWIN mmn MURRAY GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 159

                                        ADDED: Just in case the above family is correct, there is an advert in the Manchester Times 7 July 1893:

                                        HOLT – Tidings are earnestly sought by his brother and sister, of Oswin Holt, who left Manchester about nine years ago for Canada, and was last heard of in St Louis, Missouri, about three years since. Address A & S Holt, 9 Whitworth Street, Longsight, Manchester

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