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William Rivers circa 1800

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    William Rivers circa 1800

    G'day from Australia. I hope everyone is staying safe and well. Being in Oz I find it hard to access merchant mariner records. Great, great grandfather William Rivers states he is a Master Mariner when he marries Margaret Thomas in Limehouse in 1824. William possibly born around 1800. We have been unable to identify William for 20 years. DNA gives us some clues but still no luck. Can anyone suggest mariner records I might be able to access? I think I need BT19.. Cheers
    ​​​​​
    Hello everyone. Hope you and your family are safe and well.

    I would like to pose a big challenge. After nearly 30 years of searching this remains unsolved. I know family folklore is fraught with embellishments in retelling over many years, however, there is a grain of truth I believe. In my great aunts marriage notice, Trove Dec 1889 it says she is the great granddaughter of Lady Rivers of Blackheath. Isabella Jane Rivers was born in Sydney in 1868. She is a grand niece of the Ladies Snoxell and Clybourne /Cranbourne? ? Of Upper Clapton and Stoke Newington. There's a later, Jan 1890 Trove that mentions good old Lord Rivers belatedly.

    This would suggest her grandfather William Rivers circa 1800 is the child of Lady Rivers.

    If anyone has time or inclination perhaps you can find the Ladies Snoxell and Claiborne?

    ​​​​​​It would take a miracle but I'm a believer in miracles.

    With best wishes, Julie from Australia
    Welcome to the forum, I have found a William Rivers on Find My Past which has BT20 (piece 4) from the National Archives, entry number 2768, age 33, born 1802, birthplace Cowes [that's in the Isle of Wight], as the Mate on the P????? of Cowes, 9th March 34

    There is free access to the National Archives for a while at the moment and online records can be downloaded if you register but I don't know my way round it well enough to offer advice on how to find any more.

    I see on the marriage for his youngest daughter Isabel he is named as William John Rivers and a Captain merchant Service. So still alive in 1857. Is this the last known date you have for him?

    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...00/edit/record
    This private tree has William John b 1903. Perhaps you could contact Zoe to see if she has further information

    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...d=382143886936
    Looked on NA and I'm not good there either but found one you can download

    William J. Rivers made Captain 1846

    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7599950


    Originally posted by Elaine
    Looked on NA and I'm not good there either but found one you can download

    William J. Rivers made Captain 1846

    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7599950
    That is free to download at the moment, Minnie
    Originally posted by MinnieR View Post
    . Great, great grandfather William Rivers states he is a Master Mariner when he marries Margaret Thomas in Limehouse in 1824. ​​​​​
    No he doesn’t – there’s no mention of his occupation.

    The baptisms of his children say he is a mariner, which is not the same as a master mariner.

    William must have died by 1843 as it looks like Margaret remarried in 1843 to William Thompson and is in the 1851 census as a widow (again!) with daughters Margaret (now Morgan), Isabella & Sarah. Margaret Jr says her father was a master mariner when she married, but I'm doubtful that he was.

    The National Archives document seems unlikely to be your man as it actually says William T Rivers, and by 1849 he was Commander in the Royal Navy. I’ve only looked at the watermarked preview, but it says he died 18 Oct 18?7 aged 85 at Hove. A William Thomas Rivers died in 1897 in Steyning RD (which includes Hove), aged 85.
    RIVERS, WILLIAM THOMAS aged 85 GRO Ref: 1897 D Quarter in STEYNING Volume 2B Page 164

    If he is the William Rivers from Cowes then the last ship I see him on is the Jannet in 1838
    There was a Charles Dow Rivers, mariner, baptising children around the same time in the same area - possibly him, or a relative?
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ers%22&f=false

    Connected?
    https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/claim/view/25374
    Thank you everyone, much appreciated. William married 1824 lists his occupation as master mariner on the wedding cert. He appears to be still alive in 1857 as he's not listed as deceased on Isabellas wedding cert. His wife Margaret remarried? in 1843 as a widow, so maybe deserted. Zoe as mentioned in replies is a Rivers cousin. William John born 1829 went to sea aged about 15. My family has several William John's, most of whom went to sea. I will look at William Rivers born 1802 in Cowes. I think Charles Dow Rivers is related somewhere.
    ​​Stay safe and thanks again.
    Minnie - where have you seen a marriage record that states his occupation. I looked at the one on Ancestry and no occupation is mentioned.

    Also, you cannot place any reliance on him not being noted as deceased on his daughter's marriage certificate - although some certificates may include that information, there isn't a specific place for it and it wasn't a question that was required to be asked .

    Margaret would not have been able to remarry for 7 years if she had simply been deserted, unless she was willing to commit bigamy.

    If William died at sea, you would be lucky to find any reference to it unless there is a ship's record somewhere.


    This is the parish entry for John Rivers marriage:

    1824 Rivers - Thomas Marriage.JPG


    Are we saying that this is the wrong Isabella marrying??


    Isabella marriage 1857.JPG
    Find my Past has an index record for an April 1841 probate for a William Rivers who appears to have died in foreign parts - Administration granted in the Commissary Court of London. The notes section mentions Ms Romulus, which I take to be a ship (Merchant Ship Romulus). Might be a lead?
    I think that's the right Isabella, but I don't think that the information about her father can't be relied on. She was baptised 1840 & her mother remarried 1843, so its likely she barely knew her father, if at all.
    A search on the ship Romulus brings up a few newspaper items advertising that she regularly travelled from London Docks to the West Indies, and was captained by Rowland Morton. An advert in July 1840 says it was sailing for Demerara, and other adverts - including one in May 1841 - mention Antigua.

    Added - also this from March 1841:
    https://reader.exacteditions.com/iss.../12?term=crime

    "For the last fortnight there have been no arrivals at the Motherbank from foreign ports, except one on Thursday, namely, the barque Romulus, R. Morton, master, from Demerara, in a very distressed state. The captain, who is an old sailor, and has been between forty and fifty years at sea, never experienced such rough weather crossing the Atlantic. He encountered perfect hurricanes for nearly three weeks, from the westward, and was obliged to heave the ship to, nearly the whole time, the sea making a clean breach over her, clearimr the deck of all the boats, bulwarks, ancl everything moveable on deck ; splitting three maintopsails, and others blown to pieces. She is come in here to procure some sails and temporary repairs, to enable her to proceed to London."
    Bear in mind that the info on official documents often depends on the questions asked - so the questions may have been "what is the name of your father? and his occupation?" without the question "is your father still living?"

    Jay
    Thank you for the info re the Romulus. Also the April 1841 Probate on FMP. I'll get on there and look. I've always thought William perished abroad. Possibly during the China wars. With our Rivers mob it is so very difficult to follow them, I suspect we are wrong somewhere which is why we cannot find William. Many thanks to all of you for your kindness in helping me.
    Re the Romulous and probate in 1841. My great grandfather William John (1829) was allegedly left a ship? ? Sounds unlikely but who knows. Family folklore galore, Apparently he was dissuaded from taking possession and the ship went to the Exchequer? ? I'm starting to feel somewhat positive.
    Nudge.

    OC
    Perhaps he was left a share of a ship? It was very common to only have part ownership of boats, especially smaller craft. The one's working off the Norfolk coast which my rellies were involved with seem to have been in shares of sixty-fourths. Some of the owners had shares in several ships and I think the practice had a basis in not having all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.If the vessel went down, then the loss incurred was borne by all the owners, in proportion to the numbers of shares they each owned. A couple of my men mentioned their share of ships in their wills - one left his shares to a rellie, the other said they were to be sold and the money from the sale was to be part of his estate.

    Jay
    There is already a thread about this person. Sorry, I don't know how to do links on my.kindle but I will try to bring the thread up the boards.

    OC

    https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...ers-circa-1800

    here you are lots of info found for you.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Katarzyna; 12-07-20, 19:40.
    Kat
    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

    #2
    Apologies for combining your posts altogether like this, Minnie, instead of combining the two threads. Have sent you a pm.
    Kat
    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

    Comment


      #3
      Thank you everyone for your kind assistance. Any idea why i can't open any of the links posted here?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by MinnieR View Post
        Thank you everyone for your kind assistance. Any idea why i can't open any of the links posted here?
        do you mean the images? I think you have to make 10 posts before you can view.
        Carolyn
        Family Tree site

        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

        Comment


          #5
          Which ones are you unable to view Minnie and I will transcribe them for you.
          Kat
          https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

          Comment


            #6
            Hi K, click image for larger name version, edited 13/ 7 5 40pm. Seems I can open some with others saying not authorised. I'll keep posting to the magic number 10.

            Comment


              #7
              Thanks for the info on Charles Dow Rivers and William Dow Rivers, despite their nefarious activities. There is possibly a connection.

              Comment


                #8
                I will try a FMP subs shortly.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Good morning everyone, please stay safe and well.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    No 10 post, hopefully I can now access all your most appreciated links.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      It says you have only done 7 posts
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Thank you

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Hope everyone staying safe and well

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Let me see if this post 10 and I can open all links😊

                            Comment


                              #15
                              looks like you are there now
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment

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