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  • Trying to find father of illegitimate ancestor

    Hi! I have a really confusing brick wall I've been trying to overcome for the past year or better and I seem to be getting nowhere with it.

    My great-great grandmother was Roseline Brossett. She was born in 1876 in Cloutierville, Natchitoches Parish, Louisiana. She was the daughter of Marie Lise Brossett. But there is no father listed on her baptismal. Her mother had a lot of children - about 14 in total - that were all born out-of-wedlock. Most of them I know the fathers of but there are about 4 or so children that I don't know the father, Rose included. Lise often had children with men living nearby to her and oftentimes she had them within a year or two of each other. So based on my knowledge of the other biological fathers of these kids, I know that when there was a gap of 3-4 years, it usually meant that these set of kids were born to a different man entirely.

    But back to what I was saying, the only other documentation I have of Rose besides the baptismal is a written-up copy of her marriage license (that omits the parents) and censuses that range from 1900-1910, since Rose died in 1915. I can't find her prior to those dates. So I'm at a loss here as to who her father was.

    I do know for a fact that I share DNA with a set of cousins with the surname Rachal. That leads me to believe her father very well may have been a Rachal since all my other lines are DNA-proven not to be related to these Rachals. The problem with that though lies within the fact that a lot of these Rachal cousins are double or sometimes triple cousins to me through a lot of intermarriage. The area in Natchitoches was very rural so cousin-marriages happened often. The weird part is that with a lot of these cousins, even though we only have one documented line shared, we often share more DNA than we should. And yet, these cousins - some who match me on one line, some on others - still all match each other. When the only known connection could be Rachal.

    It again leads me to believe her father himself was a Rachal. Throw in the fact that some of these Rachal cousins are descended from those only of white ancestry versus some sets of Rachals descended of mixed white and African ancestry makes it all even more confusing. You see, I also have some African DNA that evidently comes through the biological father.

    So I looked a bit more and did find one thing - apparently, there was a Louis Casimere Rachal (b.1825) that was living a few houses away from Lise both 6 years before Rose's birth (1870) and 4 years after her birth (1880). He was an older, wealthy man (which was Lise' usual choice) who lived alone with his wife. All of their children had either moved off or married. And he was also of mixed white and African ancestry - he was the son of Jean Espallier Rachal Jr. and Marie Susanne Metoyer. He also was related to a cousin that I share exta dna with - he was her great-great grandfather's brother.

    It all seems to fit but I don't have any other documentation past this. So my question is - is this enough proof to say that this man was Rose's father since DNA is all that I have to go by? And when there are no documents to be found, is DNA sufficient enough to say "this is the one"? Any help or thoughts on this are very welcome!!

  • #2
    Sorry - totally unqualified to offer any opinion on the DNA front but your Marie Lise Brossett certainly sounds like an interesting character!

    Christine
    Researching:
    HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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    • #3
      Hahaha why thank you! Yeah, she definitely led an interesting life, that's for sure! lol

      Comment


      • #4
        well it sounds familiar. lol no I have just concluded a search for my biological great grandfather. I did have an extensive tree to begin with but as my great grandparents married after the birth of my grandmother there was always doubt that he was her true father but we traced his tree anyway. When I did my dna test I never got any matches from his family, the Hall family, which wasnt surprising. Then I noticed I was getting a lot of quite close ones 3 or 4th cousins that all had a name in common Glennie from New Zealand which is where my grandmother was born. since being in lockdown I managed to connect with a quite distant Glennie and she has helped me tremendously. We have come to the conclusion who my biological great grandfather is. Most of the Glennie were from the south island but we needed a connection to the north island.Lo and behold we found one that married in Gisborne 2 years after my grandmother was born and I have a really good match with one of the descendants from that marriage. I am convinced we have the right candidate!!! i have one aunt that is like minded but another aunt says she wants absolute proof.... Sorry but anybody who has absolute proof would have passed on by now.
        Anyway not helping with your problem but I have managed to solve mine by keep plugging away.
        good luck

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        • #5
          Oh gosh, you had a lot to research then! I completely understand though, whenever there's any doubt on an ancestor, I want to have proof of it, too. I'm glad you found yours after all of this looking, it's always rewarding to be able to finally pin down a connection! That's true! I mean, sometimes I think DNA is all you can go by when there's no one left to ask that would know. That's my problem at the moment - my grandfather has long since passed and I don't have any contact with most of that side of the family so DNA is all I have really.

          Thanks!!

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          • #6
            I tried to assist a friend to identify her paternal grandfather's father. Her grandfather, too, was illegitimate. And her family lines crossed multiple times, too. We were able to limit her grandfather to either of two people (father and son) but we were unable to find a distinct connection that could only be related thru one or the other.

            I guess I might suggest - you say that there are others who may have been fathered by this same man. Do any of those have a direct male line back to the Mr. Rachal candidate? Could you persuade that descendant, and a known Rachal descendant to do Y-DNA testing? If you also show autosomal close connection to that first person, and especially if all three of you show that close connection, I would be very encouraged.

            Also, there are many gurus (I mean, like the people who do presentations at RootsTech and such) who answer questions and problems at genealogy-dna at googlegroups.com.

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh really? And you did this through DNA? Either way, that's impressive because that's my brick wall at the moment - having so many interrelated lines that cross, making it near impossible for me to pinpoint an exact line.

              Well, I've found baptismals for a few other kids besides Rose that look to match up on birth dates to have been her full-blooded siblings. The problem is that I can't find anything on them - I don't know if they married, had living descendants or even lived to adulthood. I've tried researching best I can but nothing seems to come up - not in the Natchitoches area or other parts of Louisiana.

              Those names were Louis Gonzaque Brossett (May 1872), Sarah Brossett (1873), and Catherine Brossett (1875). The first two I'm not 100% certain were fathered by Rose's dad or not. There's a possibility a Gonzaque could have fathered them being that there was a Creole family of the same last name that lived in the area. But I know for certain that Catherine had to have been her full-blooded sister because Rose named a daughter after her.

              Oh really? That's an idea! Never thought of that before. I'll definitely try that out, thank you for letting me know!

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              • #8
                Well, I've been doing more digging and did find one interesting thing. I found a cousin to me - would be distant, about 7th cousins or so if I'm correct - who is a Metoyer descendant. We match on another chromosome completely from the Rachal cousins but she's not descended from any Rachals, just Metoyers. I think I might be getting somewhere with this!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by StarQueen View Post
                  Oh really? And you did this through DNA? Either way, that's impressive because that's my brick wall at the moment - having so many interrelated lines that cross, making it near impossible for me to pinpoint an exact line.
                  Everyone's circumstances are unique. In my friend's case, she was looking for the identity of her great-grandfather. Her grandfather's DC listed his father's first and last name, but that was hardly unique in the area.

                  My friend tested, and immediately had a couple of close-cousin matches on her paternal surname. The matches had a father-son pair who had the same first and last names, and which was also the same first-and-last names listed on the DC.

                  But every time I thought I had located a unique line to the wife of the senior member of the pair, I'd find another line that came into play.

                  And her brother's Y-DNA test did match to others of their family surname, confirming their own surname but not which of the father-son pair is the g'grandfather.

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                  • #10
                    Have you seen this book? It lists Rachal among its many surnames:
                    canerivertrading.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, canerivertrading.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!


                    FS has various church records for Natchitoches

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                    • #11
                      Ohh, okay, I see what you mean now. That sounds a lot like my problem - every time I think I have the right man, there's another line that intersects and confuses me lol. And then some people match me more and some less and that also confuses me because I know that not everyone inherits DNA the same way or the same segments, for that matter so it leaves me unsure if I have the right line or not.

                      But I do know that I don't match that particular Metoyer descendant on any of her other lines. If it's the right connection, we should share 17 cm and we share 15 cm. Do you think that's a good indicator then that maybe I have the right man?

                      I also have two cousins that are descendants of Louis' brother, August. One matches me as much as she would if Louis was the bio dad of Rose and the other cousin matches less than she should. I estimated we should share about 144 cm and we only share around 58 cm while the other is supposed to share about 104 cm and shares 92 cm, which is more in line with what it should be, I think.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                        Have you seen this book? It lists Rachal among its many surnames:
                        canerivertrading.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, canerivertrading.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!


                        FS has various church records for Natchitoches
                        https://www.familysearch.org/search/...4-50,891671-50
                        Huh, no I haven't seen that before! Thanks for sending that, I'll check it out - maybe I can glean more info this way!

                        Hm, well, as to documentation - Rose's baptismal leaves his name off the record completely. And the written-up copy of her marriage license that I found in an old family bible doesn't list her parents, although I'm unsure if that's because it was just left out when written down or because they didn't list parents on licenses as early as 1895 when she married.

                        For now, the only documentation I have that points to him being her father is the 1870 and 1880 censuses where he was living a few houses away from her mother, Lise Brossett.

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                        • #13
                          Well, I searched all of yesterday and was finally able to find an answer to this question! Thank you to everyone who replied though, you were all helpful

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                          • #14
                            Marie Lise Brosette is my husband's 2nd great grandmother. Her son Adam Carnahan is his great grandfather and his daughter Daisy Mae( born in 1908) is his grandmother. She married James Kerry....they had 12 children: Artis,Gary,Velmer Lee, Larry, Jimmie Faye, Marvin, Margaret Ann, Jerry, Judy, Juanice, and twins Bonnie and Connie. Still looking for info about Lise Brosette!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GaelicWillow View Post
                              Marie Lise Brosette is my husband's 2nd great grandmother. Her son Adam Carnahan is his great grandfather and his daughter Daisy Mae( born in 1908) is his grandmother. She married James Kerry....they had 12 children: Artis,Gary,Velmer Lee, Larry, Jimmie Faye, Marvin, Margaret Ann, Jerry, Judy, Juanice, and twins Bonnie and Connie. Still looking for info about Lise Brosette!!
                              Hello, GaelicWillow, nice to meet you! Since Marie Lise Brossett was my mother's great-great grandmother as well, I guess that would make your husband and my mom 3rd cousins. I know a little about Marie Lise, although not very much. She was born October 23,1841 inCloutierville, Natchitoches Parish and died September 5, 1911 in Sang Pour Sang Hill Community, Natchitoches Parish. She had about 14 children (to my knowledge) and never married (again, to my knowledge). I've seen a couple of cousins through the Carnahan branch pop up in my cousin match DNA list or on forums but never have gotten a chance to speak to any of them. Do you happen to know anything about her daughter, Roseline Brossett? Or who Rose's father was? It's still a bit of a mystery to me. Also, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that you may have about Lise - if I know them! LOL

                              Hope you're doing well and my apologies to seeing this post three months late LOL

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Do you think these are related ?
                                quote - My great-great grandmother was Roseline Brossett. She was born in 1876 in Cloutierville, Natchitoches Parish, Louisiana.
                                .............................................



                                ..................
                                Allan ......... researching oakes/anyon/standish/collins/hartley/barker/collins-cheshire
                                oakes/tipping/ellis/jones/schacht/...garston, liverpool
                                adams-shropshire/roberts-welshpool
                                merrick/lewis/stringham/nicolls-herefordshire
                                coxon/williamson/kay/weaver-glossop/stockport/walker-gorton

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  certainly good names that feel related. have you tried to find a connection and failed?
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by garstonite View Post
                                    Do you think these are related ?
                                    quote - My great-great grandmother was Roseline Brossett. She was born in 1876 in Cloutierville, Natchitoches Parish, Louisiana.
                                    .............................................


                                    https://gw.geneanet.org/dmnewlin?n=b...=marie+celeste
                                    ..................
                                    Since Cloutierville was such a small community in Natchitoches, I'd wager that all Brossetts are related somehow. But these two most definitely are.

                                    Marie Brossett:
                                    https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pe...tails/L1M1-PSP

                                    Marie Celeste Brossett's father, Marion H Brossett:
                                    https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pe...tails/L51J-4D9

                                    Marie Celeste is not listed among his children on that family tree but the other sibling names are exact to the ones on the tree you supplied for her.

                                    Based on that, they both descend from Pierre Brosset (1744-1821) and his wife, Marie Josephe Grillet (1760-1832). On a side note, Marie Lise Brossett's father was one of their sons, Pierre Cesaire Brossett.

                                    Hope this helps!
                                    Last edited by StarQueen; 14-07-22, 23:16.

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