Age problem...

[Darksecretz]

If Kate was registered in Kensington, her mother Elizabeth was also there, and Elizabeths brother and his wife Ann. Which is why I suddenly thought maybe she isn't Elizabeths as you have no record of Elizabeth being in Kensington? apart from Kates birth? Or am I also getting in a muddle.

I don't know where in London she [Kate] was born. I was kind of presuming that Elizabeth was in that area so she could have been staying with William & Ann but as the two births that were registered in Kensington aren't her. I'm now unsure of where to go.

I think I see what you mean now though, I know that there was another Brown birth with MMN larkins but didn't associate it with them. So do you think that Elizabeth isn't the mother but Ann is?

[Darksecretz]

this is the only other birth I can spot with MMN Larkins and I discounted this as being a family member as the dates are too soon to be a sibling?

BROWN, FLORA DRUSILLA MMN LARKINS
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 82

[cbcarolyn]

I don't know where in London she [Kate] was born. I was kind of presuming that Elizabeth was in that area so she could have been staying with William & Ann but as the two births that were registered in Kensington aren't her. I'm now unsure of where to go.

I think I see what you mean now though, I know that there was another Brown birth with MMN larkins but didn't associate it with them. So do you think that Elizabeth isn't the mother but Ann is?

When I realised they were in London, i did wonder, as the census just states grand daughter. Maybe he was poorly in 1871 (if he died in 1872)and she was struggling with 3 children.

Should be able to find her somewhere.....

this is the only other birth I can spot with MMN Larkins and I discounted this as being a family member as the dates are too soon to be a sibling?

BROWN, FLORA DRUSILLA MMN LARKINS
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 82

I saw that one too interesting names, any of them cropped up elsewhere? too close I think to next child. this once could be born Dec 1867 and registered as late as possible next Sept 1868 registered almost immediately possible I guess

[cbcarolyn]

you would think Flora Drusilla Brown would stand out like a sore thumb - but maybe she dropped the Drusilla! interestingly Ancestry has her birth transcribed as Elena.

[Elaine]

I also looked at them and also realised, in 1881 in Nottingham, the lady who Kate is with, marries in London and returns to Nottingham, in case it helps

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1623&h=7306238&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

1891

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=6598&h=13658533&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

[cbcarolyn]

what army records do you have of william?

is this him:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

i think this is possibly same document available on FMP, sadly if it is him there is no family mentioned.

Document states discharged Dec 21 1870
First name(s) William
Last name Brown
Birth year 1841
Birth parish Kirby in Ashfield
Birth town Mansfield
Birth county Nottinghamshire
Birth country England
Service number 1829
Rank CORPORAL
Regiment Grenadier Reg Of Guards
Year 1860
Attestation date 20 Nov 1860
Attestation age years 19
Attestation age months 9
Discharge corps Grenadier Reg Of Guards
Discharge service number 1829
Document type Discharge
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Archive
The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 1859
Box record number 113
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & Service Records
Collections from Great Britain, England

[cbcarolyn]

Not solving the problem but have found this baptism - not sure if you have it:
william henry.JPG

First name(s) Gulielmus Henricus
Last name Brown
Birth year 1870
Birth date 29 Sep 1870
Baptism year 1870
Baptism date 13 Nov 1870
Church St Mary
Parish Horseferry Road, Westminster
Diocese Westminster
Deanery Westminster
Ecclesiastical province Westminster
Father's first name(s) Gulielmi
Father's last name Brown
Mother's first name(s) Annae
Mother's last name Larkins
County Middlesex
Country England
Archive
Westminster Archdiocesan Archives
Document type Baptisms
Records year range 1867-1872
Page 194
Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain

there is also this one which I am assuming is a red herring...
briggeda.JPG

Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s) Briggeda
Last name Brown
Birth year 1868
Baptism year 1869
Parish Notting Hill
Diocese Westminster
County Middlesex
Country England
Mother's first name(s) Anna
Mother's last name Larkins
Father's first name(s) Gulielmi
Father's last name Brown
Page 110
Birth date 03 Sep 1868
Baptism date 22 Mar 1869
Church St Francis of Assisi
Deanery North Kensington
Ecclesiastical province Westminster
Archive
Westminster Archdiocesan Archives
Register type Baptisms
Records year range 1865-1871
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from Great Britain, England

[Darksecretz]

you would think Flora Drusilla Brown would stand out like a sore thumb - but maybe she dropped the Drusilla! interestingly Ancestry has her birth transcribed as Elena.

quite how they ever arrived at that I'll never know!..

[Darksecretz]

I also looked at them and also realised, in 1881 in Nottingham, the lady who Kate is with, marries in London and returns to Nottingham, in case it helps

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1623&h=7306238&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

1891

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=6598&h=13658533&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

I hadn't even noticed that Elaine thank you. Not quite sure how relevant it is though.. but lateral thinking is great

[Darksecretz]

what army records do you have of william?

is this him:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

i think this is possibly same document available on FMP, sadly if it is him there is no family mentioned.

Document states discharged Dec 21 1870
First name(s) William
Last name Brown
Birth year 1841
Birth parish Kirby in Ashfield
Birth town Mansfield
Birth county Nottinghamshire
Birth country England
Service number 1829
Rank CORPORAL
Regiment Grenadier Reg Of Guards
Year 1860
Attestation date 20 Nov 1860
Attestation age years 19
Attestation age months 9
Discharge corps Grenadier Reg Of Guards
Discharge service number 1829
Document type Discharge
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Archive
The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 1859
Box record number 113
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & Service Records
Collections from Great Britain, England

Yep that's him. I do have his records but no real mention of family. His cousin George was also a Guard around the same time.

[Darksecretz]

Not solving the problem but have found this baptism - not sure if you have it:
william henry.JPG

First name(s) Gulielmus Henricus
Last name Brown
Birth year 1870
Birth date 29 Sep 1870
Baptism year 1870
Baptism date 13 Nov 1870
Church St Mary
Parish Horseferry Road, Westminster
Diocese Westminster
Deanery Westminster
Ecclesiastical province Westminster
Father's first name(s) Gulielmi
Father's last name Brown
Mother's first name(s) Annae
Mother's last name Larkins
County Middlesex
Country England
Archive
Westminster Archdiocesan Archives
Document type Baptisms
Records year range 1867-1872
Page 194
Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain

there is also this one which I am assuming is a red herring...
briggeda.JPG

Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s) Briggeda
Last name Brown
Birth year 1868
Baptism year 1869
Parish Notting Hill
Diocese Westminster
County Middlesex
Country England
Mother's first name(s) Anna
Mother's last name Larkins
Father's first name(s) Gulielmi
Father's last name Brown
Page 110
Birth date 03 Sep 1868
Baptism date 22 Mar 1869
Church St Francis of Assisi
Deanery North Kensington
Ecclesiastical province Westminster
Archive
Westminster Archdiocesan Archives
Register type Baptisms
Records year range 1865-1871
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from Great Britain, England

OMG Why have I never seen these?? Adaline was born on 4th Sept 1868. [and Ellen Brown was Williams sister] I can't read Latin? so am a little unsure of the wording but obvs can make out Ann & larkin/g/s

where on earth did you find these?

[cbcarolyn]

they are on findmypast, ooh so Adaline is Briggeda? dates are too close for them not to be the same - wow plot thickens.

will keep looking tonight, and look at Elaines find too. couldn't see any other baptisms. The book of those baptisms did start at 1867, so potentially if Kate was in them she may have missed that book.

[cbcarolyn]

I did search using the latin name for William after i stumbled across them via larkins, but didn't find anything.

You have the army records on Fold3? will these be different to those on FMP? Anyone know? I can download FMP later.

[Darksecretz]

they are on findmypast, ooh so Adaline is Briggeda? dates are too close for them not to be the same - wow plot thickens.

will keep looking tonight, and look at Elaines find too. couldn't see any other baptisms. The book of those baptisms did start at 1867, so potentially if Kate was in them she may have missed that book.

it does look that way but quite how Briggeda morphs into Adaline I'll never know!.. Briggeda is Bridget? that certainly does throw more into the muddy waters!.. oh eck!

[Darksecretz]

I did search using the latin name for William after i stumbled across them via larkins, but didn't find anything.

You have the army records on Fold3? will these be different to those on FMP? Anyone know? I can download FMP later.

I'm not sure/can't remember. I think that they are also on TNA as well, but have no idea how to search that either!.

I'm trying to find the other refs I have as well.. but at the moment they are eluding me. [with ref to her other children she had bapt up here]


b.1876 04 25 bapt. 1876 11 01
Theresa
F] John CHADWELL M] Ann LARKIN ...NOTTINGHAM St Barnabas R.C.

I know also that there was another bapt for a John but at the moment I cannot find it. he was born in 1879.


b. 1882 12 10 bapt.1883 08 31
Arthur
F] John BROWN M] Ann LARKIN

HUCKNALL Holy Cross R.C.

[cbcarolyn]

here are the docs from FMP
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...dPV1E2Nkg1aFBR

[cbcarolyn]

I have just found a really sad newspaper story about a death of a William Brown (child) are you aware of this?

[cbcarolyn]

It has given me access to view the fold3 image - is this because TNA are free? who knows. But tells you nothing about dependants.

[vera2013]

On the 1939 Kate Skelton gives dob 03/11/1866. Could have been a late Reg

There is an Emily Kate reg 1868 Westminster.
On FMP mmm Brown Westminster St Margaret. Think that area is where Grenadier Guards had their barracks. Possibly could stretch it into Bayswater

Vera

[Darksecretz]

here are the docs from FMP
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...dPV1E2Nkg1aFBR

Brill have downloaded them thank you.

I have just found a really sad newspaper story about a death of a William Brown (child) are you aware of this?

yes, I'm aware and it was very sad indeed. Thank you for looking.

It has given me access to view the fold3 image - is this because TNA are free? who knows. But tells you nothing about dependants.

I don't know.. presumably that they are the same documents as FMP?