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Turner family and the pre 1837 marriage

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    Turner family and the pre 1837 marriage

    Two of us are researching the same family but disagree on the bride in a pre 1837 marriage

    We both have the same family from the 1851 & 1861 census recorded as follows;

    Thomas Turner was born ABT 1812 in Walsall, Staffordshire and died 1878 in Sheffield. He married Sarah Unknown.

    Children of Thomas Turner and Sarah Unknown:
    i. 2. Betsey Turner was born 1837 in Walsall, Staffordshire
    ii. 3. Sarah Turner was born 1844 in Walsall, Staffordshire
    iii. 4. Thomas Turner was born ABT 1847
    iv. 5. Samuel Turner was born ABT 1850 in Walsall, Staffordshire


    I believe Sarah Unknown is Sarah Holt- Thomas Turner/ Sarah Holt marriage 20 March 1836 Wednesbury, Staffordshire, England, United Kingdom,
    The other researcher believes it's Sarah Addison --marriage:26 February 1834 Stone, Staffordshire

    I can understand the births not being registered that early but I have found 3 which match Holt as mmn;
    TURNER, SARAH mmn HOLT GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in WALSALL UNION Volume 17 Page 265
    TURNER, THOMAS mmn HOLT GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 16 Page 324
    TURNER, SAMUEL mmn HOLT GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in WALSALL Volume 17 Page 254

    I'm happy to accept I've got it wrong but the neither of us can find the 1851 family in the birth index with mmn Addison.

    Am I making things fit the evidence? I haven't backed anything up with certs as yet but the other researcher is adamant I've got it wrong. I do know the Thomas abt 1847 married Ann Maria Holt in Sheffield.



    http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

    Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
    My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
    My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

    #2
    I've now found one birth with mmn Addison in Stone post 1837, now I'm even more certain but still getting battered with "you're wrong" stuff.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

    Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
    My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
    My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

    Comment


      #3
      FS has baptisms for two children that seem to be part of the family:
      https://www.familysearch.org/search/...nt=20&offset=0

      but you don't mention Harriet, who might be an answer to your question, as the MMN has been transcribed for the record:
      https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQ2S-D6P

      Do you have baptismal records for these children?
      ------------------------------------------------------
      My Families
      London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

      Comment


        #4
        Possible death for Harriet - if so she would have missed both 1841 and 1851:

        Deaths Sep 1842
        TURNER Harriet Walsall 17 175
        ------------------------------------------------------
        My Families
        London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

        Comment


          #5
          Sorry, I was dodging the bricks being aimed my way, Ill have a look now.
          http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

          Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
          My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
          My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

          Comment


            #6
            I haven't looked for baptisms as yet, I was piling through the GRO births trying to see the family groups based on the Holt and Addison mmn entries.
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

            Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
            My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
            My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

            Comment


              #7
              I would have to ask for their 'proof' why they think it is a different Sarah.

              Using FMP this are Turner/Holt children born staffordshire - 1837 to 1857: ( also there is a Thomas in Birminham)

              Turner Harriet 1841 Walsall, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Sarah 1844 Walsall, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Samuel 1849 Walsall, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Isaac Henry 1851 Wolstanton, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Emma 1852 Walsall, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Edward 1856 Wolstanton, Staffordshire, England

              and these are Turner/Addison- these dates seem to be different to your census dates, and different names - Sarah and Thomas will be the children of all Sarah and Thomas

              Turner Sarah 1839 Stone, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Thomas 1839 Stone, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Mary 1841 Stone, Staffordshire, England
              Turner John 1844 Stone, Staffordshire, England
              Turner Ann 1847 Stone, Staffordshire, England
              Turner William 1850 Stone, Staffordshire, England

              guess need to find a census with the other family to disprove
              ...off to bed now
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


                #8
                Thomas in Birmingham is my direct ancestor.

                I've just found the marriage register for the Turner/Holt marriage and baptism register of Harriet and Sarah. I think this is an all nightery now. sleep is over rated anyway
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                Comment


                  #9
                  inquiring minds want to know the conclusion...
                  ------------------------------------------------------
                  My Families
                  London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I think I've found the "other" family in 1841 at Eccleshall, Thomas and Sarah both 1811 plus Thomas and Sarah 1839 & Elen 1837. Not much luck in 1851 though.
                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                    Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                    My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                    My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                    Comment


                      #11
                      1851 my lot were in Old Meeting Yard, Dudley Street.

                      1841 Thomas 25, Sarah 20, Elizabeth 5 and William 2. Cox's Yard, Dudley Street.

                      Checking the birth index again here's a William, mmn Holt 1839 Walsall district.

                      I can't make out Thomas' occupation, possibly caster which would also tally with the '51 mentioned above.


                      The lack of supporting evidence for the Turner/Addison link in Walsall seems to be greater now than before, no bmd, no census. The '41 at Dudley maybe isn't mine but there are bmd index results up to 1846 with mmn Holt to match the '41 and '51 returns.
                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                      Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                      My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                      My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Glen in Tinsel Knickers View Post
                        I think I've found the "other" family in 1841 at Eccleshall, Thomas and Sarah both 1811 plus Thomas and Sarah 1839 & Elen 1837. Not much luck in 1851 though.
                        there is an Ann and William marked in their own property as dau and son, Ancestry has them as part of the Williams family next door, FMP as on their own:

                        First name(s) William
                        Last name Turner
                        Relationship Son
                        Age 10
                        Birth year 1851
                        Occupation Scholar
                        Birth town Cotes Heath
                        Birth town as transcribed COTES HEATH
                        Birth county Staffordshire
                        Birth county as transcribed STAFFORDSHIRE
                        Birth place (other) England
                        Birth place other as transcribed -
                        Street Cotes Heath
                        Parish Eccleshall
                        City or borough - County Staffordshire
                        Parliamentary borough -Hamlet Cotes Heath
                        Ecclesiastical district St James Cotes Heath
                        Registration district Stone
                        Enumeration district 7
                        Archive reference RG09
                        Piece number 1913
                        Folio 5
                        Page 4
                        Family member last name Turner
                        Family member first name(s) Ann, William
                        Record set 1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
                        Category Census, land & surveys
                        Subcategory Census
                        Collections from Great Britain, England
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                          #13
                          here is the same William (I think) born Cotes Heath with brother John b 1844

                          ​​​​​​First name(s) William
                          Last name Turner
                          Relationship Brother
                          Marital status -
                          Sex Male
                          Age 20
                          Birth year 1851
                          Occupation -
                          Birth town -
                          Birth place England
                          Birth county Staffordshire
                          Birth county as transcribed STAFFORDSHIRE
                          Parish Cotes Heath
                          County Staffordshire
                          Country England
                          Registration district Stone
                          Archive reference RG10
                          Piece number 2825
                          Folio 95
                          Page 12
                          Record set 1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                            #14
                            If indeed these are the right "wrong family" seem to be getting somewhere now with Cotes Heat - which seems to be near Stone where births were registered:

                            there is a baptism for William:
                            Baptism date 20 Oct 1850
                            Baptism place Cotes Heath, St James

                            and it ties in with your find in Eccleshall
                            Carolyn
                            Family Tree site

                            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Ann:
                              First name(s) Ann
                              Last name Turner
                              Baptism year 1847
                              Baptism date 18 Apr 1847
                              Baptism place Cotes Heath, St James
                              Denomination Anglican
                              Father's first name(s) Thomas
                              Mother's first name(s) Sarah

                              there is a Thomas Turner Age 4 death Cotes Heath burial 18 May 1843

                              There is a Sarah turner servant in Stone in 1851 and a marriage with father as Thomas - there seems to be a lot of evidence out there on this lot if you need anything further.
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Well "my" lot moved to Sheffield between 1851 and 1861. I've got the full set of census for all the pre 1851 children. Emma 1852 and the Wolstanton born boys are new names so I'm still checking those but they don't figure in anywhere with the Sheffield census returns at present.


                                Thomas abt 1847 married in Sheffield in 1868 (to Ann Maria Holt who hails from Walsall), with the exception of his daughter born in 1870 at Walsall all his kids and subsequent bmd & census are in Sheffield. I have the marriage cert. The other researcher seems to think two Turner/Holt marriages is too much of a coincidence but based on the census, bmd and marriage registers I disagree.
                                There were quite a few Thomas 1847 birth cert options but now the GRO birth index showing the mmn seems to add weight to the census returns, I fell if I order the 1847 cert they would still say I've picked one that fits my argument but they have nothing to show it doesn't.


                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                                Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                                My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                                My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Bingo

                                  Holt and Turner marriages along with Holt and Parr marriages. In 1841 all three families present in Cox's Yard, Dudley Street, Walsall. If that doesn't blow the Turner/Addison connection out of the water I don't know what does.
                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                                  Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                                  My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                                  My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                                  Comment

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