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  • Rhoda Brown/Lilley

    This one has kept us guessing for 5 years now.
    My grandmother on her marriage certificate (Walthamstow, Dec 12 1909) is said to have been Rhoda Lilley on her marriage to my grandfather John Benjamin Wathen and her father is given as William Lilley. Her age is given as 25. From my mother I had her birthdate as 8th October 1884. From mother, other family members were Esther, Bertha and Edward
    In the 1871 Census for Dudley Oakey Well St:
    John Brown
    Mary Ann Brown
    Esther Ann Brown
    Sarah Brown
    In the 1881 census for Dudley Campbell St PRO Ref RG 2877 Page 19:
    John Brown
    Mary Ann Brown
    Esther A Brown
    Edward Brown
    Bertha Brown
    In 1891for Tower St DudleyRG12/2296 Folio 57
    William Lily
    Mary Ann lily
    Edward Brown
    Esther Brown
    Bertha Brown
    Rhoda Brown (The first mention of Rhoda) then 8 born Dudley
    In 1901 Wolverhampton St Dudley RG RG13/2744
    Mary Ann Lilly
    Thomas Lilly grandson
    Edward Brown Grandson
    and
    RG13/2758 3 Back Lane Kingswinford
    Rhoda Lilley Servant Single 18 Born Oakham Staffs

    I have other evidence that John Brown died in Dudley workhouse in 1882, more than 12 months before Rhodas birth.
    In 1887 we have found an entry for July 25 of a marriage in Netherton between a Mary Ann Neath (widow) (so perhaps another marriage we cant find)Nee matthews of Dudley and a William Lilley widower. The fathers details match those given ion the marriage of Mary Ann to John Brown I am told, though I do not have the certificate.
    All this has brought us no closer to finding Rhodas birth.
    Can anyone out there shed any light?
    Last edited by landofrainbows; 24-11-08, 17:10. Reason: An incorrect date

  • #2
    If you have a look on the IGI:
    Birth/Christening, British Isles
    Father: John Brown, Mother: Mary
    Exact Spelling: Off
    Batch Number: C040148
    It looks as if Esther Ann had a couple of older sisters - and it gives Esther's DoB.

    That suggests that there may be later records available for baptisms at St Thomas's, Dudley. It may be possible to track down Rhoda through her baptism (that batch goes up only to 1874). Maybe they forgot to register her? The other children appear to have been registered.

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

    Comment


    • #3
      There's a later-date batch (C021456) for St Thomas's, but it doesn't have all the info with it that you'd expect for an extracted list.

      There are a couple of baptisms for children with parents John & Mary (but Mary isn't given as Mary Ann).

      Christine
      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

      Comment


      • #4
        There's a submitted record for the marriage of John BROWN and Mary Ann MATTHEWS:
        5 May 1868 St Edmund's, Dudley, Worcester

        John's father is named as "Edward"... which would go with one of the children's names?

        It certainly looks plausible.

        Christine

        PS - Welcome to FTF! :D
        Last edited by Christine in Herts; 23-11-08, 16:52.
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          There's a birth for a Phebe Brown in Dudley ... Oct/Dec 1883



          best I can come up with

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          Comment


          • #6
            One other thought...

            My grandmother decided she would be called by a different name from the one with which she was registered (Alice). In 1901 she opted for Harris. By the time she died in 1927, she was calling herself Roma Alice.

            Rhoda is the Greek for Rose. Maybe she's one of those registered as Rose BROWN? I can't see one at the right time at the moment, but we could keep looking.

            Incidentally - that 1901 PoB actually says "Staffs, Oakham", with "Rutland" (the county you'd expect for Oakham) added in the final column, afterwards.

            Christine
            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Rachel Scand View Post
              There's a birth for a Phebe Brown in Dudley ... Oct/Dec 1883

              best I can come up with

              Phebe and Rhoda are quite similarly-shaped names. It might be worth contacting Dudley Register Office to ask them to look and see if Phebe is really Rhoda - or if she has the correct parents, anyway (in case she decided she didn't want to be called Phebe!).

              I suggest that, because I had a "Charles" who was entered in the index as "Charlee".

              Christine
              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

              Comment


              • #8
                I found these

                sep 1881 Marriage George Neath m Mary Ann Watkins or Elizabeth Marsh dudley
                sep 1883 Birth Rhoda Meath West Brom
                jun 1884 death George Neath age 40 Dudley


                your records show Mary Ann was nee Matthews
                married John Brown jun 1868 dudley

                I think this Neath one is a separate family or Mary Ann married several times
                Jayne




                My avatar is great great granny Annie Pugh, possibly christened 24 Feb 1858.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dopeyploppy View Post
                  I found these

                  sep 1881 Marriage George Neath m Mary Ann Watkins or Elizabeth Marsh dudley
                  ...
                  West Midlands BMD has this as George NEATH marrying Mary A WATKINS, at Tipton, St Mark. (Elizabeth MARSH/MARCH married James LOWE.)

                  And they have the Rhoda "MEATH" birth as well. Unfortunately, they don't have MMN on their site this early (yet).

                  Likewise, they have George's death - but no age is shown.

                  Christine

                  PS - there's also a date mismatch (doesn't necessarily rule it all out!!) in that John BROWN died "1852" (in context, that must be 1882) but the NEATH/WATKINS marriage was Sep-Q 1881. All the registrations make Rhoda b a year early, too.
                  Last edited by Christine in Herts; 23-11-08, 22:03.
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    W Midlands BMD also has:
                    1887:
                    LILLEY William m NEATH Mary A
                    at Dudley, St Andrew

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There's a Mary Ann MATTHEWS, aged 9, in 1851 in W Brom with parents Edward and Sarah.
                      HO107; Piece: 2026; Folio: 292; Page: 18

                      Christine
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Don't think I'm ignoring any of this, I am busy cross-referencing.
                        I have contacted Dudley Records Office, so will have to wait to see what happens there.
                        I too had found all the Mary Ann marriages and possible names.
                        Apologies, I had miswritten John Browns date of death,
                        For clarity I'll add the following notes made from the admission and discharge books of Dudley Union/Sedgely Workhouse:

                        On sat February 10th 1882, a John Brown was admitted Workhouse) He was born in 1827, he was living in Dudley and his religion was given as 'church'
                        On Monday 17th April, the register shows Esther Brown born 1869 and Edward Brown born 1877 admitted 'deserted by mother.
                        This would leave Mary Ann with 2 year old Bertha. Presumably, with John ill she is unable to support 3 children.
                        On Saturday 2nd July the register shows that John Brown dies his age is given as 54 which matches what we have, so is most probably our John Brown.
                        On 4th August Esther and Edward are discharged to their 'mother' no name given.

                        Rhoda first appears as an 8 year old in 1891, when she and other Brown children are in the household of Willam and Mary Ann Lilley.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Mary Ann Matthews in 1851 would look promising, particularly with names which appear in the family like Edward and Sarah

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not much help, but I have seen Rhoda/Phoebe often confused, especially where they thought it was spelled PHEBE, lol! (Or even Phebo!)

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Looks like its back to trawing the possibilities in Free BMD!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                25th July 1887 St Andrews Netherton
                                William Lilley 57 Widower, Labourer, Dudley Father given as deceased
                                Mary Ann Neath 47 Widow, Dudley, Father Edward Matthews Puddler
                                Witnesses: James Round, Eliza Male

                                In 1868 June 1/4
                                Mary Ann Matthews married John Brown. (thanks for the detais)

                                All other bits seem to fit but where the 'Neath' comes from, I've no idea
                                Cross checking only leads to more confusion.

                                The Matthews family themseves lived in Tipton and Mary Ann appears on the census with them in1851 HO107 Piece 2026 folio292 page 18 so I am wondering if there is a Tipton link to Rhodas birth, given that in various places it is said to be Dudley or Oakham Staffs (definitely staffs and not Rutland), Oakham was on the Eastern edge of Dudley on the Tipton side.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I found this in Free BMD, it may mean nothing, but working on OC's theory......
                                  The date is a quarter out, but then nothing's straightforward in this search.

                                  Births Sep 1884

                                  Brown Phebe W. Bromwich 6b785

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I have followed the Edward and Sarah Matthew trail all the way back to the marriage of Edward and Sarah and all the way forward to the 1991 census, where elderly Edward Matthew, now widowed is living with his son in Tipton.

                                    In the 1861 Census, RG9/2030 Mary Ann is in service with a family called Lawton of 18 Loveday Street West Bromwich

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by landofrainbows View Post
                                      25th July 1887 St Andrews Netherton
                                      William Lilley 57 Widower, Labourer, Dudley Father given as deceased
                                      Mary Ann Neath 47 Widow, Dudley, Father Edward Matthews Puddler
                                      Witnesses: James Round, Eliza Male

                                      ...
                                      All other bits seem to fit but where the 'Neath' comes from, I've no idea
                                      Cross checking only leads to more confusion.

                                      ....
                                      Does the info in postings 8 & 9 not contribute?

                                      Christine
                                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Trying to cross check how Mary Ann would have become a Watkins throws up more puzzles than it solves, though I am still busy trying to check.
                                        Mary Ann would have had to have married a couple of times between 1882 when John Brown died and 1887 when she married William Lilley, for both Neath and Watkins to figure.
                                        As for Rhoda Meath birth, I am waiting for a reply from West Brom Records, hoping that that will give me the parents names on the Rhoda Meath record.

                                        In your list, I notice someone in Mevagissy, and have a contact in Pentewan the next village who may be willing to do some fishing if it would help.

                                        Comment

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