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  • Certificate query..

    This is an on-going concern for me. Everyone emphasizes the need for certs--but what is a cert? I do my very best to ensure that my tree is accurate, but I don't have a single 'cert' to prove anything. I'm Canadian, and I strongly suspect the British 'cert' system you all talk about is different than ours in many ways. But, as most of my maternal ancestors are British, I need to get this straight. For example, my own original birth certificate, as well as my parents & my spouses, do not identify the names of parents--only the dates of birth & registration, and place of birth. How do I know who my parents are? I grew up with them, have lots of photos, etc., but I don't have any 'cert' which tells me I was born to them. I don't know of any such a thing in Canada, or how one would obtain one.

    I have found more info in Ancestry on old birth registrations than on current documents. Old birth registrations or baptismal records found on Ancestry identify the name & birth date of the child, his parents (including the mother's maiden name), address, profession of father. Is this a 'cert'? I consider it evidence of the info contained if I am confident it pertains to the right family. This sort of thing, coupled with hard evidence from the family bible, Mother's notes & photos, letters, etc. form the backbone of my tree. Mother's notes identified all of her father's siblings, names, dates of birth, and names of spouses where applicable. I've found those same names with same dates of birth & addresses in English census documents and baptismal records. Is that adequate evidence? I have to say, it is for me.

    With a legal background, I look for evidence to support or disprove a suggested fact or hypothesis. I try to find evidence which proves or disproves absolutely, but as I go farther back in time I don't have absolute proof--only evidence such as the baptismal & marriage records. This to me is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and I will accept that. Evidence which supports information only on a balance of probability requires further research, but I will include it in my data with comments to that effect.

    So what are these 'certs' you refer to? What am I missing?

  • #2
    You'll find a good description of what is included in the English and Welsh certificates in our reference library - click here

    .. and another page for Scottish certificates - click here


    Elaine







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    • #3
      Originally posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
      This is an on-going concern for me. Everyone emphasizes the need for certs--but what is a cert? I do my very best to ensure that my tree is accurate, but I don't have a single 'cert' to prove anything. I'm Canadian, and I strongly suspect the British 'cert' system you all talk about is different than ours in many ways.

      So what are these 'certs' you refer to? What am I missing?
      Certificates in England and Wales are copies of the entry in the register of birth, marriage or death which have been kept since 1837. Although exact details recorded have changed over the years in the main in the case of birth certificates the information will include the name of the child and date and place of birth, names of father and mother and father's occupation, name of person registering the birth and the date it was registered. Marriage cetificates have names age,occupation and address of both bride and groom, names and occupations of bride's and groom's fathers, if married in church then name of church, whether by banns or licence and name of minister, and signatures of bride groom and witnesses. Death certificates give name, occupation and age of deceased, date and place of death and name and address of person registering the death. All in all very useful info for checking you have the right person and finding extra info to carry the tree further.

      update - And while I was typing that, Elaine posted a link which probably gives you the info in a clearer way than I've managed
      Last edited by JudithM; 27-10-12, 19:25.
      Judith passed away in October 2018

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      • #4
        Thank you Elaine. Pictures help. I have a number of those marriage records in my data, both originals & photocopies. I've never ordered any myself though.

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        • #5
          it sounds like you have an extract of your birth entry, not the full copy. i have extracts for my great grandmother, grandmother and myself. but that is just saying so and so was born in this place on this date. the full entry is much more detailed, specially here in victoria.

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          • #6
            A BC birth certificate gives my name, birthdate and registration number. The actual detailed birth certificate with parent's names addresses etc is held by the province's vital statistics department and not made public for over 100 years. If the information is required by a government agency they vital statistics can find it using the registration number.
            A few years ago I requested my marriage certificate. I wanted a copy of the one with all the nitty gritty filled out at time of marriage. I gave the clerk my name, OH name and details. Two weeks later I got an official looking document containing the info I gave her. The certificate has OH born in the Isle of White. So obviously she did not even look up the original document.:(
            So Canadian certificates won't contain any useful information unless you are able to obtain the long copy of the original document. In BC. death certificates are open after 20 years, marriage certs after 75 years. Manitoba has their available certs online for ordering. Alberta does not. And maybe if you are eligible to order the certificate all you may get is a piece of paper that verifies that George was born , or married, or died.
            Donelda

            searching for the Berkshire Hobbises, Rowles, Staniford, Rogers, Parkers, Thackhams, Gouts, LeBouviers, Heaphys and Wilsons

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            • #7
              Sorry about splitting the topic of this thread. I think I got some answers to my rant though.

              Thanks JudithM and Nelde. Saskatchewan is the same as BC. Short story, our Canadian certs are not as helpful as the UK versions.

              One last question: Are those UK marriage & birth certs showing up in commercial genealogy databases such as Ancestry & FMP? I recall seeing some on Ancestry but they may have been private jpgs which members have posted.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
                Sorry about splitting the topic of this thread. I think I got some answers to my rant though.

                Thanks JudithM and Nelde. Saskatchewan is the same as BC. Short story, our Canadian certs are not as helpful as the UK versions.

                One last question: Are those UK marriage & birth certs showing up in commercial genealogy databases such as Ancestry & FMP? I recall seeing some on Ancestry but they may have been private jpgs which members have posted.
                [1] do you want to delete (or get one of us to delete) the redundant duplicate posting? 20 or 21

                [2] The "certs" that show up on (e.g.) Ancestry, would not be certificates, but images of Parish Registers. In the case of marriage registers, the information is identical - with the added advantage that (so long as it isn't the Bishop's Transcript) you get to see the original handwritten signatures of the participants. In the case of Baptism registers, only rarely would you get the DoB, and MMN, and the address is that of the family at the time of the Baptism, which may not be the same as the PoB. A similar situation arises with deaths - the parish registers would show the record of the burial, not the death.

                Christine
                Last edited by Christine in Herts; 29-10-12, 16:49.
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                • #9
                  Some people have put images of actual birth, marriage or death certificates into their own trees. I'm not sure it is actually legal (copyright-wise) to do this on a public tree!!!

                  Anne

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
                    One last question: Are those UK marriage & birth certs showing up in commercial genealogy databases such as Ancestry & FMP? I recall seeing some on Ancestry but they may have been private jpgs which members have posted.
                    Yes, you are right that there are some certificates on private ancestry trees which have been scanned & posted online by the tree owner, as well as photos of individuals etc. I was lucky enough to come across my 2xgreat-grandparents marriage cert on ancestry just before I planned to order it & was then able to swap a great deal of info with the tree owner, a very distant relative, which saved us both some money!
                    Generally speaking though, there are no UK birth, marriage or death certs available online through subscription sites (only the equivalent parish register entries, where available) & the BMD certificates have to be ordered on an individual basis.

                    Sandra

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Anne in Carlisle View Post
                      Some people have put images of actual birth, marriage or death certificates into their own trees. I'm not sure it is actually legal (copyright-wise) to do this on a public tree!!!

                      Anne
                      And I do agree with Anne, I'm not sure of the legality of posting certificates online, but I am grateful to the distant relly who did, & saved me a few pounds ;D

                      Sandra

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                      • #12
                        http://www.bmdshare.com/index.php this site has free certs to view the information but its down for maintenance at the moment but one for the favourites and you can always offer your certs there too. You just offer the information from the cert.

                        Edna

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                        • #13
                          A general note on certificates

                          Well known to hard-core researchers (and perhaps obvious on reflection!) the information is only as good as the person delivering it knew: eg what is on my aunt's death registration entry re her birthday, middle name etc is only as good as I knew at the time. For all sorts of reasons some of that could be wrong. My parent's marriage cert does not give an accurate occupation for my father, he "upgraded" himself.... Some data must be right (date of marriage, date of death) - or what if the normally meticulously careful registrar made a copying error?

                          Parish registers are more prone to inaccuracy - especially when viewed in digital transcript form, because the handwriting can be much harder to interpret even than mine! And it is less likely that the main people involved were literate so variant spellings will go unchecked. I have frequently seen baptism dates recorded as birth dates in family trees, but even 200 years ago baptism might happen when a child was 7 or 8 with a baby sibling on the same day; baptism on the day of birth normally meant an expectation of imminent death. Fortunately (when trying to ascertain death dates) burial invariably happened within a week or two of death.

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                          • #14
                            Anne, interesting thought about copy-write concerns. I can't see that being a problem, although I could see a privacy violation issue for any living individuals.

                            Thank you all for sharing this info. Overall, I've learned a lot. I am confident that my data is verified, but can think of a family or two that might benefit from a cert.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Copyright.

                              This is the guidance given by the NA.

                              This Page is [ARCHIVED CONTENT] and shows what the site page http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/copying-bmd-certificates.pdf looked like on 31 Dec 1900 at 23:59:59


                              Chris
                              Avatar....My darling mum, Irene June Robinson nee Pearson 1931-2019.

                              'Take nothing on its looks, take everything on evidence. There is no better rule' Charles Dickens, Great Expectations.

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                              • #16
                                Hmmm... very interesting. OC was right as per paragraph 1, BUT they have gone further to allow people to do just what some do on Ancestry ie. publish their ancestors' certificates on the web. That's the bit I didn't know.

                                Presumably it also applies on this forum? Moderators have been scrupulous in making sure people don't add complete certificates to their questions .... however it would seem that it is not necessary to be so strict?????

                                Anne

                                A

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                  Anne

                                  I'm not sure whether TNA speaks for the GRO, though? Must check GRO guidelines.....

                                  Oh, rjm, so sorry to be diverting your thread off course!

                                  OC
                                  Can't believe they don't - or at least haven't checked the overall ruling in this matter.
                                  Margaret

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                                  • #18
                                    I have split this thread, hopefully so not to confuse RJM with his research.
                                    Julie
                                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                    .......I find dead people

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                                    • #19
                                      I see the Lost Cousins Nov newsletter addresses this exact issue. It can be found on another thread elsewhere on this forum, but the pertinent link is at http://www.bcgcertification.org/resources/standard.html and states in part:

                                      Applications for certification (to certify a genealogist) are judged on whether they meet the standards delineated in the BCG Genealogical Standards Manual. All of its seventy-four standards contribute to the level of credibility in genealogy called the Genealogical Proof Standard (GPS). As a result, genealogists who are certified have demonstrated their ability to do work that meets the GPS.
                                      Proof is a fundamental concept in genealogy. In order to merit confidence, each conclusion about an ancestor must have sufficient credibility to be accepted as "proved." Acceptable conclusions, therefore, meet the Genealogical Proof Standard (GPS). The GPS consists of five elements:
                                      • a reasonably exhaustive search;
                                      • complete and accurate source citations;
                                      • analysis and correlation of the collected information;
                                      • resolution of any conflicting evidence; and
                                      • a soundly reasoned, coherently written conclusion.

                                      Each element contributes to a conclusion's credibility in a different way, described in the table below, but all the elements are necessary to establish proof.
                                      Last edited by Prairie Chicken; 10-11-12, 12:04.

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                                      • #20
                                        I must admit to being worried when a fellow researcher put a scanned image off scotlandspeople on their public ancestry tree. I did wonder if it was one I'd copied to him - and I emailed him with my concerns but thankfully it wasn't.

                                        The certificates you mention seem to be the short certificate with just name, date and place of birth given to you on registration. Think you had to pay extra to have the longer certificate with parent's details.
                                        Last edited by JBee; 10-11-12, 10:42.



                                        Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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