Francis SPENCER and Hannah LINTON

[Peter46]

I have a family bible which records the births of the children of John and Mary SPENCER (née JONES) between 1768 and 1780. It then goes on to record the descendants of their youngest child who was the original owner of the bible and my 3 x great grandfather.

I have found proof online that John and Mary were married on 21 April 1760 in the town of Monmouth in Monmouthshire, South Wales.

Through further research I have discovered that John SPENCER was born in 1737 in Shelsley Walsh, Worcestershire and he was the fifth of eight children. His parents were Francis SPENCER and Hannah née LINTON. They were married on 16 January 1727 at St Peter the Great in Worcester. What I do not know is what year they were born or where (for the time being I have guessed at 1710 and Worcestershire).

Can anyone fill in the blanks please?

Peter

[Olde Crone Holden]

Hello Peter

you say you have found proof "online" of the marriage in 1760. What does that proof consist of, please? It would be rather strange if they married in 1760, but did not start having children (or recording them) until 1768.

OC

[kylejustin]

marriage in 1727, you would presume the parties were born around 1707 or earlier, to make them 20 or older, as 1710 makes them 17.

[Peter46]

Marriage of John SPENCER and Mary JONES

Hello Peter

you say you have found proof "online" of the marriage in 1760. What does that proof consist of, please? It would be rather strange if they married in 1760, but did not start having children (or recording them) until 1768.

OC

I found the record at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....marrindex.html which was a list of Monmouthshire marriages between 1725 and 1812. That page is no longer available.

I agree that it is strange that they did not have any children prior to 1768 I can only surmise that any children they did have died as infants. The original owner of the bible was their youngest recorded son James SPENCER (born 1780) and whilst he would be aware of his living elder siblings he would have no knowledge of any deceased ones. It is unlikely that John or Mary would have mentioned their deceased children to their living ones.

[Olde Crone Holden]

So, have you checked the information that James recorded about his own birth/baptism and that of his siblings? If you can find the parish entries for them, you may find evidence of earlier children.

I don't agree that deceased children would not be mentioned, you simply cannot know whether that is true or not.

OC

[PhotoFamily]

Index to Spencer-Jones marriage:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N2HG-C2N

Spencers born in Monmouth in your timeframe. No James, tho there are census records at the end that seems to have him:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aspencer~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22monmouth%2C%20england%22%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1769-1781~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bfather_surname%3Aspencer~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Amary~%20%2Bmother_surname%3Ajones~

Apparently includes images of 5 baptisms, no James, but I didn't look at what they are.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Photofamily

thanks for that link but Peter must have found the marriage somewhere else because your link shows only a year, not a date - unreadable date maybe?

I'm thinking if it was difficult to read then the marriage year may have been 1766, not 1760, which would make more sense if the first recorded child was born 1768.

OC

[Elaine ..Spain]

I found the record at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....marrindex.html which was a list of Monmouthshire marriages between 1725 and 1812. That page is no longer available.

I think this is a copy of the page - no longer generally available but viewable using "wayback machine"

http://web.archive.org/web/20081016113538/http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/grooms-s.html

Shows date of marriage as 21st April 1760 ... typed transcript!

Edit ... you need to wait for the page to load.

[PhotoFamily]

thanks for that link but Peter must have found the marriage somewhere else because your link shows only a year, not a date - unreadable date maybe?

I'm thinking if it was difficult to read then the marriage year may have been 1766, not 1760, which would make more sense if the first recorded child was born 1768.OC

The film it comes from is of a bishop's transcript:

https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F18577

I like the idea that is a misinterpretation of the year. Wonder where the PR is?

[Peter46]

So, have you checked the information that James recorded about his own birth/baptism and that of his siblings? If you can find the parish entries for them, you may find evidence of earlier children.

I don't agree that deceased children would not be mentioned, you simply cannot know whether that is true or not.

OC

Sorry if I have confused you but my information regarding James birth came from the entry in my family bible which only listed the children who survived. I have found James in the 1851 census which gives his birthplace as Whitchurch, Glamorgan. I did not go into a lot of detail in my original post regarding James or any of his siblings as it was his paternal grandparents birth dates and birthplaces that I was attempting to ascertain. I note that other members have kindly offered some suggestions which I will investigate in due course.

[Peter46]

I think this is a copy of the page - no longer generally available but viewable using "wayback machine"

http://web.archive.org/web/20081016113538/http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/grooms-s.html

Shows date of marriage as 21st April 1760 ... typed transcript!

Edit ... you need to wait for the page to load.

Thank you

[Olde Crone Holden]

No, I meant have you checked that the information you have in the bible tallies with entries in the original parish records. If you find his baptism then the baptism of earlier siblings may be there as well and their burials also.

I do understand that it is James' grandparents you are trying to fix, but as the name Spencer is quite common in the area and (to my mind) there is a worrying gap between marriage and birth of surviving children, I would want to ensure I had the correct marriage for John (and to see the original entry).

OC

[Peter46]

Photofamily

thanks for that link but Peter must have found the marriage somewhere else because your link shows only a year, not a date - unreadable date maybe?

I'm thinking if it was difficult to read then the marriage year may have been 1766, not 1760, which would make more sense if the first recorded child was born 1768.

OC

As Elaine has pointed out the marriage between John SPENCER and Mary JONES is listed at http://web.archive.org/web/200810161.../grooms-s.html which shows the date 21 April 1760

[Olde Crone Holden]

And as Elaine has pointed out, it's a typed TRANSCRIPT. The entry in the BTs shows only the year of 1760, no date - so presumably unreadable, as other entries in those BTs show dates.

OC

[Peter46]

Parish Records

No, I meant have you checked that the information you have in the bible tallies with entries in the original parish records. If you find his baptism then the baptism of earlier siblings may be there as well and their burials also.

I do understand that it is James' grandparents you are trying to fix, but as the name Spencer is quite common in the area and (to my mind) there is a worrying gap between marriage and birth of surviving children, I would want to ensure I had the correct marriage for John (and to see the original entry).

OC

None of the relevant parish records appear to be available online. A few years ago a relation, now sadly deceased, was able to do some lookups and was able to confirm facts. They did find another child of John and Mary SPENCER who was not mentioned in my bible that was Samuel born 1781 died 1782. They made no mention of finding any children born before Sarah in 1768 the first one named in the family bible.

[Olde Crone Holden]

You can borrow filmed original records to view at your nearest LDS centre. That is how I have consulted original records for many years. Quite often there is additional information on the original record which has not been transcribed.

OC

[Peter46]

Unfortunately there is not a LDS centre near where I live. As I do not own a car I am reliant on public transport the nearest rail station is 10 miles from my home and none of the centres are easily accessible to me. :-(

[PhotoFamily]

Post on the Research Request? The problem is to be specific: Looking for the baptism of <name> in the parish of <town> born about <year> child of <parents' name>. Unfortunately, the Research Request section is not an open-ended research venture!

[Christine in Herts]

There's a 1760 Monmouth marriage which shows up on FMP.co.uk. It looks as if that particular set hasn't reached FMP.com, yet. I can't tell if there are images as well as the transcription.

EDIT: No - the options don't include "view image" - just "view transcript".

Christine

[Peter46]

On Findmypast I have found the baptism for Mary Jones who was one of my 4th great grandmothers. She was baptised on 24 September 1738 at St Mary's, Monmouth, Monmouthshire. The daughter of James Jones and Ann née Morgan. From the same source I have found that James and Ann were married in the same church on 4 August 1735. The same source lists the marriage between John Spencer and Mary Jones at St Mary's, Monmouth on 21 April 1760.