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  • Trying to find the link between two people?

    Hi, so I have a copy of a birth certificate for my grandfather, which names the mother (Elizabeth True) and the grandmother (Ellen True); there is no father (although the child Samuel Theophilus is named as being a Gould).

    I have found out about Elizabeth True... she was born in the March quarter of 1868, in Fonthill Gifford, Wiltshire. She moved to Wales (Aberystruth, Monmouthshire) between 1871 and 1881. She married Joseph Fieldhouse in Breconshire in July 1888, although she gave birth to her illegitimate child in May. She moved to Lancashire with her husband, but returned to Wales by 1911 and lived in Abertillery, and died in Merthyr Tydfil in the March quarter of 1941.

    On her child's birth certificate, there is no father named, but the informant was an 'Ellen True' who was the grandmother of presumably Samuel, and lived at 1 Queen Street Blaina, as did Elizabeth. From what I can see, there is only one possible Ellen True, who was born approx 1848 near Fonthill Gifford, Wiltshire, married Samuel True and died June quarter 1917 in 'Mere' (which includes Fonthill Gifford). This connection makes sense, but I can't find any link.

    How can Ellen True be Elizabeth's mother/grandmother? Help! Thank you (I have an Ancestry subscription if I need to look up anything).

    EDIT: Also, Ellen lived on the same road as Elizabeth for a while... there are no house numbers.

    Ellen: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=6598
    Begin your discovery today by exploring the world's largest online family history resource!


    Elizabeth: http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=45861298&pid=6439256150&d bid=7619&rpid=4333882&nam=Elizabeth%2bTrue%2bField house&pg=32768&pgpl=pid


    On Samuel Theophilus' birth certificate, it says 'X The mark of Ellen True Grandmother present at the birth 1 Queen Street Blaina'... it also says Elizabeth's address is the same. Samuel's surname is Gould although father column is blank.

    I have Mary Ann as being Elizabeth's mother, George as being her father. Samuel is on the certificate as Gould, birth index as a True, and he later becomes a Richardson after being 'adopted' by his step-father Joseph.
    Last edited by mandatedgg; 19-10-12, 10:30.

  • #2
    Hi Mandatedgg

    have you looked at Eleanor for Ellen? or praps Helena?

    on the birth certificate, what does the header column say for his name, and is Samuel Theophilus Gould all in this column?
    Julie
    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

    .......I find dead people

    Comment


    • #3
      just to muddy the water a little have you seen this?

      1871: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=7619

      very spooky!
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #4
        There was no column allocated for the surname of a child in the 1880s - surname was inferred from father's name and in this case, would be the mother's surname of True.

        EDIT - yes, just checked, his birth is listed under the surname TRUE, not Gould. However, that gives you a very good clue that his father was Theophilus Gould!

        OC
        Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 18-10-12, 21:33.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
          There was no column allocated for the surname of a child in the 1880s - surname was inferred from father's name and in this case, would be the mother's surname of True.

          EDIT - yes, just checked, his birth is listed under the surname TRUE, not Gould. However, that gives you a very good clue that his father was Theophilus Gould!

          OC
          yep, thats kinda where I was heading too OC.. it doesn't help either that on his WWI records he is under the name of Fieldhouse
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #6
            No, I take that back, Theophilus Gould was the name of a prominent USA Methodist pastor and black rights activist, so not likely to be the father of this child, particularly as he doesn't appear to have ever visited England!

            OC

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
              No, I take that back, Theophilus Gould was the name of a prominent USA Methodist pastor and black rights activist, so not likely to be the father of this child, particularly as he doesn't appear to have ever visited England!

              OC
              There is also this one who could be the culprit!


              Theophilus Gould
              Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1857
              Registration district: Pontypool
              Inferred County: Monmouthshire
              Volume: 11a
              Page: 133

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mandatedgg View Post
                On her child's birth certificate, there is no father named, but the informant was an 'Ellen True' who was the grandmother of presumably Samuel, and lived at 1 Queen Street Blaina, as did Elizabeth.
                .
                This is the census return for 1. Queen St. in 1891

                Comment


                • #9
                  So, Mary Ann True appears to have been Eliazabeth's mother, and was married to George True.

                  name: George True
                  gender: Male
                  baptism/christening date: 07 Mar 1830
                  baptism/christening place: Tisbury, Wiltshire, England
                  father's name: James True
                  mother's name: Elizabeth

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    i don't see how ellen being elizabeth's mother is problematic (havn't checked any links etc) she would have been 20 when elizabeth is born, quite normal. but she could also be elizabeth's step mother.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Ellen you refer to was married to Samuel True born circa 1852........a different generation ?????????

                      name: Samuel True
                      gender: Male
                      baptism/christening date: 07 Sep 1851
                      baptism/christening place: Fonthill-Gifford, Wiltshire, England
                      father's name: John True
                      mother's name: Eliza

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Can't get a sensible head around this at the moment.............too tired and had a couple of nightcaps. But I feel there must be a connection between Mary Ann at 1, Queen St on the 1891 census.

                        I'll leave your search for now and maybe someone will find the link, otherwise I'll take a look with a clear head tomorrow.
                        Last edited by Guest; 19-10-12, 01:34.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ahh! Maybe this goes someway to explaining things!!??!!

                          name: Ellen Elizabeth Trew
                          gender: Female
                          baptism/christening date: 19 Apr 1868
                          baptism/christening place: Bishops-Fonthill, Wiltshire, England
                          father's name: George Trew
                          mother's name: Mary Ann

                          And Ellen Elizabeth was the mother???
                          Last edited by Guest; 19-10-12, 02:06.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh golly gosh, I don't know, I need a clear head! But I'm convinced it can be worked through with the help of parish records. Well, at least the relationship between Ellen and Elizabeth can be.

                            I'm now definitely going to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

                            I hope I haven't complicated things!
                            Last edited by Guest; 19-10-12, 02:12.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by susan h View Post
                              Ahh! Maybe this goes someway to explaining things!!??!!

                              name: Ellen Elizabeth Trew
                              gender: Female
                              baptism/christening date: 19 Apr 1868
                              baptism/christening place: Bishops-Fonthill, Wiltshire, England
                              father's name: George Trew
                              mother's name: Mary Ann

                              And Ellen Elizabeth was the mother???
                              thats the other family I found on post # 3 I think Susan..I was wondering if mother and daughter had the same name, as in 'Ellen Elizabeth' the daughter being called Elizabeth and so not to get confused the mother picked a new name altogether? [Mary Ann] ... I know, I have got really muddled too, I did last night as well!!

                              I also noticed that there are LOADS of 'True' families in BF too!...
                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              .......I find dead people

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                There are loads of them, I visited Fonthill Bishop and Fonthill Gifford to see what we could find there, found some tombstones and names in records, tiny tiny villages in South Wiltshire! Very beautiful though.

                                I have Mary Ann as Elizabeth True's mother, I just was confused as to where Ellen came into it all, as she definitely isn't Elizabeth's mother!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by mandatedgg View Post
                                  There are loads of them, I visited Fonthill Bishop and Fonthill Gifford to see what we could find there, found some tombstones and names in records, tiny tiny villages in South Wiltshire! Very beautiful though.

                                  I have Mary Ann as Elizabeth True's mother, I just was confused as to where Ellen came into it all, as she definitely isn't Elizabeth's mother!
                                  Hi,

                                  can we work backwards with Fact what you have done? I got in a right old muddle yesterday trying to get my head around it, [so you do have my sympathies there] :smilee:

                                  Samuel Theo is your grandfather, you have his birth cert which states that Elizabeth is his mother, [no father listed] and that the person that registered the birth is ELLEN TRUE..[grandmother]

                                  have you tracked backwards with Elizabeths father to see if there is any connection with an ELLEN or not? [it might be that her paternal grandmother registered the birth?]
                                  Julie
                                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                  .......I find dead people

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    i know its no consolation, but I have an instance where a 'nephew' registered the death of my 3x gt gran.. turns out he wasn't a nephew at all, but a distant cousin!!
                                    Julie
                                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                    .......I find dead people

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      There was no column allocated for the surname of a child in the 1880s - surname was inferred from father's name and in this case, would be the mother's surname of True.

                                      EDIT - yes, just checked, his birth is listed under the surname TRUE, not Gould. However, that gives you a very good clue that his father was Theophilus Gould!

                                      OC
                                      In the name column, it does read Samuel Theophilus Gould, name of mother as Elizabeth True, a Domestic Servant. I hadn't thought of that as being the father's name!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        oh and I have just had another thought.. I wonder if Mary Ann had something to hide,?
                                        Julie
                                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                        .......I find dead people

                                        Comment

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