Ancestry possible bapt.

[cpdavis35]

Hi all,

I'm trying to solve a mystery circulating around my paternal great grandfather as nothing is adding up (from stories in the family and census records etc). It's getting to a point were i'm pulling my hair out and probably in the end i'm just gonna list every thing out and let us all pick the bones out of it. Anyway, currently i'm working on when he was actually born.

Could someone check if there is a baptism record on Ancestry for either of these.

William James Newbery born Dec Qtr 1883 Islington.
William Thomas Newbury born Mar Qtr 1885 Islington.

If either of these bapts are there, could they be checked to see if either has a mother of Mary Ann listed.

Thanks

[Guest]

sorry couldn't find one for either ,there is a William Newbury born abt 1894 in Islington in 1891 with a mother Elizabeth and father James

[cpdavis35]

Ok thanks Val...might save me time in the long run to list the whole problem out and see what happens...it's a mystery that's been circulating in the family since 1948!

[Guest]

good idea somebody will be able to help you

[Chrissie Smiff]

I've just checked Family Search Craig but nothing likely is coming up on there either.

[cpdavis35]

I've just checked Family Search Craig but nothing likely is coming up on there either.

Thanks Chrissie for looking. I'm gonna gather all info i have and post here .. might take a while... but i gotta get it down and get other peoples input as im lost in wondering who this man is.

[cpdavis35]

Right here we go, apologies if it's a bit messy but here goes...any help or thoughts would be appreciated and any questions, i'll try to answer if i can.

My mother told me that her parents didn't talk much about their heritage but through my mother all the information that got passed down was my great grandfather was no good. He was a drunk and used to push around my great grandmother, even to a point of pushing her down the stairs while she was pregnant with my nan! He apparently was brought up by his grandmother.

His name was William Newbury the younger (bricklayers labourer) on his marriage cert to my great grandmother Clara in 1916. His age was listed as 34 but I think that was a lie as I know my great grandmothers age was wrong also as she was born in 1880 but she's also listed as 34. William's father is listed as William Newbury a builders labourer.

I have his death cert as my mother told me when he died. Says he was 64 when he died in 1947 which would mean an 1883 birth?

I found a lot of information from when I joined Genes Reunited ie census returns etc.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Where was your great grandmother living in 1911 please Craig and had she been married before?
Also, what was the occupation of William on the marriage cert? Oh, and witness names etc

[cpdavis35]

Where was your great grandmother living in 1911 please Craig and had she been married before?
Also, what was the occupation of William on the marriage cert? Oh, and witness names etc

My great grandmother Clara was a big mystery herself and an enigma!. Clara was married twice and ran off with a guy inbetween and had two kids with him.

On the 1911 census my great grandmother Clara is listed living at 3 Upper Ashby Street, Clerkenwell, Islington, London.

Clara is listed as still married (She married Ernest Odiam in 1900 who didn't die until 1922).

Listed with William Clitheroe (who was married himself until his wife's death in 1905).

Plus her two children Richard Odiam and Doris Clitheroe (Doris is the mother of my cousin once removed that sent me the no named birth cert).

The story goes that Richard was William Clitheroe's child as he always went by Clitheroe and not Odiam through his life. There was never a marriage found between Clara and William Clitheroe.

Clara married my great grandfather William Newbury (the younger) in 1916 as Clara Clitheroe - a widow. William Clitheroe was a lot older than Clara and supposedly died about 2.5 years after Doris was born but a death was never found at the time (before the death's were indexed at the GRO).

The details you asked from my great grandmother Clara and great grandfather William Newbury marriage cert is as follows:-

William Newbury (the younger) Occupation - Bricklayers Labourer. Fathers name - William Newbury - Occupation General Labourer.

The witnesses are listed as R. Bushby (i think) and the other i'm not sure.. i'll post that part of the cert - be easier...

[cpdavis35]

Am i right in thinking that no named birth cert is not my great grandfather with the evidence of the baptism and burial listing for this child?

[Darksecretz]

Am i right in thinking that no named birth cert is not my great grandfather with the evidence of the baptism and burial listing for this child?

I would want to examine every little details step by step Craig, but, given what you have found I would be inclined to think that you have presumed correctly.

are William & Mary Ann Wardell. [formally Newbury] the correct parents though?

Back then I thought this must be my great grandfathers birth cert. But now I have my doubts as since then I have found a baptism and a burial also for, I think, this child. The child William Wardell baptised 6th August 1883 to William & Mary Ann Wardell. The father William was listed as a Greengrocer. The burial states William Wardell buried 13th August 1883 aged 12 days. So, I believe this cancels out this no named birth cert as my great grandfather's.

surely the childs name would be Newbury if he was born before the parents married??

[loltel]

I know its a bit left field and off at a tangent but i think these listings have something to explore

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_199196-00761&fn=Robert+James+Cornelins&ln=Hevert&st=r&ssrc=&pid=4532445

Banns are read in 1882 in islington between mary ann newberry and robert james cornelius he?ert but no marriage takes place ????????? - is mary ann pregnant or already given birth and old bobby does a runner........ until he marries elizabeth fryer in 1886

[Chrissie Smiff]

That looks very interesting loltel.

I have been trying to get my head around this one. First of all Craig, do you know why she went from being Clara Jane on her first marriage to Clara D when she married your Gt Grandfather?
I thought this looked interesting too. On her first marriage to Ernest Charles Odium on July 21st 1901 she is listed as living at 6 Parker street. Then I found this - looks like the birth might have been Nov 17th 1900 and baptism Jan 6th 1901, Robert Benjamin Tharme, mother Clara Jane, father unreadable but transcribed as Phiptimate Tharme, living at 6 PARKER STREET.

I know this isn't helping to find William, but interesting all the same if you haven't already seen it.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1558&iid=31280_197416-00094&fn=Robert+Benjamin&ln=Tharme&st=r&ssrc=&pid=3400938

[cpdavis35]

I would want to examine every little details step by step Craig, but, given what you have found I would be inclined to think that you have presumed correctly. surely the childs name would be Newbury if he was born before the parents married??

Hi Julie, Yes, i'm with you on that one. This is why myself and my mums cousin can't understand why my nan's brother got this cert in 1948. We think it's wrong.

Story coming down the family is just that William Newbury was brought up with his grandmother. Personally i don't even know if Mary Ann was his mother. That was just was easy to assume as Mary Ann was living with her widowed mother on the census with her family. As i think i have closed the file on that no named birth cert. Can clear off all that info about Wardell and Mary Ann and start again and here i am lol.

[cpdavis35]

I know its a bit left field and off at a tangent but i think these listings have something to explore

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_199196-00761&fn=Robert+James+Cornelins&ln=Hevert&st=r&ssrc=&pid=4532445

Banns are read in 1882 in islington between mary ann newberry and robert james cornelius he?ert but no marriage takes place ????????? - is mary ann pregnant or already given birth and old bobby does a runner........ until he marries elizabeth fryer in 1886

Hi Loltel. Someone will have to look at that for me as i don't have a paid ancestry membership. However, I have noticed that Newbury has often been misspelt as Newberry, Newbery plus other spellings.

[Darksecretz]

Hi Julie, Yes, i'm with you on that one. This is why myself and my mums cousin can't understand why my nan's brother got this cert in 1948. We think it's wrong.

I would think that he has made the mistake of looking at the indexes, [or sending off for it] thinking that that is the only one that fits the time frame, we nowadays have the added benefit that with various ways we can cross check the most likely and eliminate the rogues.

so basically I think he [or someone else] found the ref/info and he blindly ordered it and then made the info fit.

Story coming down the family is just that William Newbury was brought up with his grandmother. Personally i don't even know if Mary Ann was his mother. That was just was easy to assume as Mary Ann was living with her widowed mother on the census with her family. As i think i have closed the file on that no named birth cert. Can clear off all that info about Wardell and Mary Ann and start again and here i am lol.

it might be an idea to remove the info about the Wardells in your post Craig, that way we can keep all the 'right' info on this thread without the wardells muddying the waters.

[Darksecretz]

That looks very interesting loltel.

I have been trying to get my head around this one. First of all Craig, do you know why she went from being Clara Jane on her first marriage to Clara D when she married your Gt Grandfather?
I thought this looked interesting too. On her first marriage to Ernest Charles Odium on July 21st 1901 she is listed as living at 6 Parker street. Then I found this - looks like the birth might have been Nov 17th 1900 and baptism Jan 6th 1901, Robert Benjamin Tharme, mother Clara Jane, father unreadable but transcribed as Phiptimate Tharme, living at 6 PARKER STREET.

I know this isn't helping to find William, but interesting all the same if you haven't already seen it.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=3400938

Phiptimate Tharme is a load of rubbish....lol... it says ILLEGITIMATE....

[Darksecretz]

I know its a bit left field and off at a tangent but i think these listings have something to explore

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_199196-00761&fn=Robert+James+Cornelins&ln=Hevert&st=r&ssrc=&pid=4532445

Banns are read in 1882 in islington between mary ann newberry and robert james cornelius he?ert but no marriage takes place ????????? - is mary ann pregnant or already given birth and old bobby does a runner........ until he marries elizabeth fryer in 1886

this is the image Craig

[Chrissie Smiff]

Hi Loltel. Someone will have to look at that for me as i don't have a paid ancestry membership. However, I have noticed that Newbury has often been misspelt as Newberry, Newbery plus other spellings.

The image actual says Mary Ann Newbury and his surname is Hevert.
Oops - too late lol

[cpdavis35]

That looks very interesting loltel.

I have been trying to get my head around this one. First of all Craig, do you know why she went from being Clara Jane on her first marriage to Clara D when she married your Gt Grandfather?
I thought this looked interesting too. On her first marriage to Ernest Charles Odium on July 21st 1901 she is listed as living at 6 Parker street. Then I found this - looks like the birth might have been Nov 17th 1900 and baptism Jan 6th 1901, Robert Benjamin Tharme, mother Clara Jane, father unreadable but transcribed as Phiptimate Tharme, living at 6 PARKER STREET.

I know this isn't helping to find William, but interesting all the same if you haven't already seen it.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=3400938

Hi Chrissie,

No-one still living knows why she changed her middle name. Maybe she had to do it for some reason...maybe to get away from Ernest. We do know that she endured quite a lot of stuff over those years and she did what she had to do to survive. She was the nicest lady..i guess being too nice you get walked all over. I do know that my nan and her siblings from Clara's marriage to my great grandfather all idolised Clara.

Looking in my files i do have the Robert Benjamin bapt from 1900 already the address listed is the same address on their marriage cert of 6 Parket Street.

I also have another child's bapt - Clara Florence bapt 1902 to both Ernest and Clara. Clara Florence died aged 2.

Philtimate? could that have read illegitimate? Robert Benjamin would have been as he was born before Ernest and Clara's wedding.