Army Births.

[Punchs mum]

Thanks to you good people on here and the FMP free credits, I have found an Army record birth for my grandmothers' brother in Sheffield in 1875.

However, there is also a birth on the GRO indexes which matches as well!

Were Army births registered twice? It is two different Ref. numbers.

Lesley.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I think if there's two different reference numbers, there will have been the registrations of two different events.
Re the army record, is it a RECORD of a birth/birth registration, rather than the REGISTRATION of a birth?
If the birth was in Sheffield (England) I would have expected it to be registered in the usual way i.e. at the office of the district registrar.

Jay

[Punchs mum]

Have printed off of FMP and it says

Army Forces registation event: Birth. Unfortunatley there is no mothers maiden name mentioned.

The father was in the 74th Foot it says but my Grandmother b.1877 in Aldershot states her father as being in the 1st Battalion 19th Foot! This is from her GRO Registration. I suppose it is possible to be moved around in the Army as the next child was born in Kinsdale, Ireland!

Thanks for your reply Janet.

Lesley.

[margaretmarch]

I don't think there would be an Army birth reg and a GRO reg so they must be two different people with the same name. The army was responsible for registering British births usually when abroad and then reporting them to GRO like a normal register office.
Margaret

[Punchs mum]

I know the only way to find the correct birth is by getting the GRO birth cert but as it is not a direct line am rather loathe to pay out for it!

It just seems strange that there were two Henry J R Courtney b.1875 in Sheffield.

Thanks for your help.

Lesley

[susan h]

From ............ http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ce...nt_to_know.asp

Regimental Birth Indexes – may show several index references for the same person. As a soldier moved from one regiment to another, he had to register himself and his family each time for pay purposes. If you find more than one index reference for same person, provide all references and we will produce the entry with the most information. There is no index for Regimental Marriages or Deaths. However, for Regimental Marriages, if a regiment and a year can be supplied, a search can be undertaken. If Royal Artillery, then a battalion or battery will be needed

I wonder if the Regimental registration was for pay purposes!!??

[Christine in Herts]

There's a Sheffield BMD site - you can find it by googling or via ukbmd.org.ok and looking on the list of Local sites.

The Sheffield site gives the middle names as "John Robert". It also gives DoB as 1st Jan, but I suspect that's just a default.

Christine

[margaretmarch]

From ............ http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ce...nt_to_know.asp

Regimental Birth Indexes – may show several index references for the same person. As a soldier moved from one regiment to another, he had to register himself and his family each time for pay purposes. If you find more than one index reference for same person, provide all references and we will produce the entry with the most information. There is no index for Regimental Marriages or Deaths. However, for Regimental Marriages, if a regiment and a year can be supplied, a search can be undertaken. If Royal Artillery, then a battalion or battery will be needed

I wonder if the Regimental registration was for pay purposes!!??

I read that to mean that there may be several references in the Regimental Index but not also in the main GRO index as to get to GRO as a regular registration the event would have to be reported to a Registrar and a certificate issued.

Margaret

[Punchs mum]

Didn't realise that Courtney was such a common name!

Henry Courtney is shown with family in Portsmouth on the 1891 Census and is shown as Henry J K Courtney but I think the K is a mistranscription of R!

Also, have been looking at Henry Courtney Snr. attestation papers and it looks like he was transferred to the 74th Foot Regiment!

In 1911 census there is a Henry John Robert Courtney age 37 in the Army in South Africa, so probably followed in his fathers footsteps by joining the Army.

Am thinking now that for some reason the Army has a registration of his birth and also the GRO! There are too many coincidences.

Lesley

[JudithM]

I think you'll find that if the child was born in England or Wales the law said the birth had to be registered at the GRO. Entry in the army registers would have been to comply with army regulations and in addition to the civil registration.

[Janet]

I have two certificates for my grandmother. One was through the Army Births obtained through the GRO and is a BAPTISMAL certificate where she was baptised at Portsea, date of birth given but no place of birth. The date and place she was baptised is given as Portsea, and I assumed WRONGLY her birth was at Portsea. Later, I obtained her BIRTH certificate also through the GRO to find she was born Nether Hallam Sheffield Yorkshire, so yes you can find two certificates for the same person because the army one is taken from the Index of births and baptisms, with the emphasis on the baptism.

Note that the FMP transcriptions suggest GRO Regimental Birth Indices but this in my view is VERY misleading, as the index has been transcribd from the old book of Regimental Births and Baptisms which used to be in the old FRC in London. If you look at the actual images of the book you will see that the top of the page states Army births and baptisms but the emphasis is on the Baptism, so sometimes you get the place and date of birth and sometimes not. The mother's maiden name on the Regimental baptisms is not given until 1966.

There are many mistakes on the transcriptions on FMP so do NOT take that as gospel but go for the GRO certificate as well. I have just looked at mine on FMP and see that the wrong regiment has been transcribed as the third regiment instead of the 33rd Regiment!

Janet

[Janet in Yorkshire]

But you wouldn't find two BIRTH certificates, surely (apart from an authorised copy.) Or perhaps it should be certificates of registration of birth.

Jay

[susan h]

I read that to mean that there may be several references in the Regimental Index but not also in the main GRO index as to get to GRO as a regular registration the event would have to be reported to a Registrar and a certificate issued.

Margaret

I think you'll find that if the child was born in England or Wales the law said the birth had to be registered at the GRO. Entry in the army registers would have been to comply with army regulations and in addition to the civil registration.

Yes, I agree with both above posts. I would think both records apply to the same person. As Henry was born in the Sheffield reg district it would have been a requirement for his birth to be registered at a local Registry Office, BUT for army records and possible pay purposes he was also registered in the Regimental Index.

[susan h]

Janet, you make a good point.

The upshot for me is both records ARE for the same Henry.

[Janet]

But you wouldn't find two BIRTH certificates, surely (apart from an authorised copy.) Or perhaps it should be certificates of registration of birth.

Jay

I have two copies. One is pink which states it is a certified copy of an entry of birth and childs name is given with date of birth 13 April 1868 and place of birth as Nether Hallam Sheffield Yorkshire(Army Barracks at Nether Hallam) This copy gives BOTH parents' names and the fact he is a sergeant in the 33rd Regiment. This is the usual GRO copy

The other one I have is white which also states certified copy of an entry of birth but also has at the top of the certificate "an entry in an army register book of births, baptisms and marriages". This copy has given the date of birth as above but no place of birth but it also gives child's baptism date which was 19 July 1868 and place of baptism is Portsea. The father's name is there and the mother's christian name but no maiden name for the mother. There is also the rank and regiment of the father. At the bottom of the certificate it states "Certified to be a true copy of the certified copy of an entry made in a Service Departments Register". The two numbers on each certificate are different.

Both copies came from the GRO but at different times.

Janet

[Janet]

Have printed off of FMP and it says

Army Forces registation event: Birth. Unfortunatley there is no mothers maiden name mentioned.

The father was in the 74th Foot it says but my Grandmother b.1877 in Aldershot states her father as being in the 1st Battalion 19th Foot! This is from her GRO Registration. I suppose it is possible to be moved around in the Army as the next child was born in Kinsdale, Ireland!

Thanks for your reply Janet.

Lesley.

I think you may find that Kinsdale Ireland is another possible transcription error, and that it might be Kinsale Ireland, which is in County Cork on the coast!

Janet

[Punchs mum]

Many thanks to everybody for their input on my question!

It seems to point to it being the same Henry on the Army indexes and the GRO index.

Thanks for pointing out the mistranscription on the Irish birth as well Janet. Geography not being my strong point I wouldn't have noticed that!

Thanks again everyone for you replies.