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  • going around in circles

    I feel that I have been going around in circles with this one,I need help and advice.
    my gr gr grandparents John Smith born in Ireland 1815 married Elizabeth Rees born 1813 in Radnorshire settkled in Bedwellty where they had 2 children Sarah born 1839 and Thomas 1841 but I cannot find their marriage ,they were not married in Bedwellty ,where can I now look ?

  • #2
    The most likely place to start would be the home parish of one of the 2 parties .... most often the bride. Do you know where in Radnorshire Elizabeth came from ?

    Have you found baptism records for the children .... they might just give some extra information ?
    Last edited by AntonyM; 25-09-12, 17:03.
    Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
    Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

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    • #3
      Hi,the answer is no to both questions ,I have found them on the 1841 and 1851 census but not afterthat I will try on the baptism side .thanks cath

      Comment


      • #4
        hello Cath

        is this them in the 1851:?



        do you have them in later census?
        Julie
        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

        .......I find dead people

        Comment


        • #5
          yes it is ,but I cannot find them after 1851,I have checked baptism records and no luck. cath

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          • #6
            I might be missing something here, but how do you know her maiden name was Rees?

            I have been looking on Familysearch but nothing is jumping out at me.
            Julie
            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

            .......I find dead people

            Comment


            • #7
              I've been wondering about that too Julie.

              Beddaubell do you have a birth cert of one of the children which states Elizabeth's maiden name as Rees?

              I found a marriage from the Gwent FHS which I thought could be a possibility but then I changed my mind (you will see why) so I wasn't going to suggest it but it might be useful for elimination purposes as there are a lot of John Smiths.

              John Smith of full age, a batchelor, occupation Coker, abode Sirhowy married Elizabeth Jones of full age, a widow, abode Sirhowy
              Marriage took place on 29/10/1838 at St Sannan, Bedwellty
              Witnesses Richard and Louisa Hart

              I then saw another entry where the father's names had been added. Thomas Smith a soldier and Richard Jones a Farmer.
              So if Elizabeth's maiden name was Jones what was her married name? I thought if someone had been married before their married name would appear on the register but I may be wrong.
              Looked for a Jones/Rees marriage but couldn't find one.

              In the 1841 census there is another John Smith with a wife Elizabeth in Bedwellty so it could be their marriage, they have 2 daughters Anne 1837 and Margaret 1839 so could have married after the birth of Anne.

              Sorry more questions than answers

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Frazzled View Post
                I've been wondering about that too Julie.

                Beddaubell do you have a birth cert of one of the children which states Elizabeth's maiden name as Rees?

                I found a marriage from the Gwent FHS which I thought could be a possibility but then I changed my mind (you will see why) so I wasn't going to suggest it but it might be useful for elimination purposes as there are a lot of John Smiths.

                John Smith of full age, a batchelor, occupation Coker, abode Sirhowy married Elizabeth Jones of full age, a widow, abode Sirhowy
                Marriage took place on 29/10/1838 at St Sannan, Bedwellty
                Witnesses Richard and Louisa Hart

                I then saw another entry where the father's names had been added. Thomas Smith a soldier and Richard Jones a Farmer.
                So if Elizabeth's maiden name was Jones what was her married name? I thought if someone had been married before their married name would appear on the register but I may be wrong.
                Looked for a Jones/Rees marriage but couldn't find one.

                In the 1841 census there is another John Smith with a wife Elizabeth in Bedwellty so it could be their marriage, they have 2 daughters Anne 1837 and Margaret 1839 so could have married after the birth of Anne.

                Sorry more questions than answers
                You are right the married name would be the one a woman uses when she marries again as a widow (or even more recently divorced) because you marry in the name you are using. However it may have been that she married a Jones the first time around and her name remained unchanged at marriage - this often happens if cousins marry.

                Margaret

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                • #9
                  Thank you Margaret didn't think of that

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                  • #10
                    in wales, there seem to be about 6 common surnames that you come across, and they appear to be unusually common. i do no think it is because of cousin marriages, but welsh ancestry seems unusually taxing. i agree with margaret, elizabeth's maiden name was jones and she married a jones. quite common in wales, i've found.

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                    • #11
                      Hi everyone ,I have Sarah's birthcertificate she was born 24th April 1839 ,registration district Abergavenny ,Elizabeths maiden name is deffinately Rees,John made his mark as he registered the birth,so he couldnt write ,so we dont know the spelling of Elizabeths surname,I havnt been able to find Thomas's birth as this is the line I am going down,he was born 1841. cath

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                      • #12
                        have you got Thomas' birth cert???

                        Name: Thomas Smith
                        Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1839
                        Registration district: Abergavenny
                        Inferred County: Monmouthshire
                        Volume: 26
                        Page: 10

                        this would verify the mmn,

                        I have also seen that there is another birth for a Sarah Jane Smith in 1839 in Abergavenny dist, so how confident are you that you have the right one?
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You also need to be aware of the patronymic naming system used at that time (and later) in parts of Wales ....which could mean a child's "surname" will often be different to that of either of his/her parents.
                          Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                          Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            in the 1841 census Sarah was 2 and Thomas 7 days old ,Sarah doesnt seem to have a middle name the same info is on the 1851 census, I understand that marriages before 1837 were held by parishes ,Elizabeth was 28 in 1841 so she could have married before ,but assuming they were married a year before Sarah was born why cant we find their marriage,and the other 2 children's birth and where were they in 1861 ,had they died or moved away . cath

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by beddaubell View Post
                              in the 1841 census Sarah was 2 and Thomas 7 days old ,Sarah doesnt seem to have a middle name the same info is on the 1851 census, I understand that marriages before 1837 were held by parishes ,Elizabeth was 28 in 1841 so she could have married before ,but assuming they were married a year before Sarah was born why cant we find their marriage,and the other 2 children's birth and where were they in 1861 ,had they died or moved away . cath
                              I see what you are saying, but I have instances where I have relatives that have middle names that weren't even mentioned at all on the census!, it wasn't until he died and then I found his birth too, with his middle name, no-where else did I find any evidence of his name... [not even on his marriage cert!]

                              as thomas' registration seems to be the only one in the area for that time, you could either look in the PRs for a baptism of him, or order that cert, in which case it will confirm one way or another exactly who his parents were.

                              as it also is very difficult to track them any further than 1851 it seems logical to me that the father died and the mother remarried. [or both parents died] it could be also that John Smith married in Ireland to Elizabeth,
                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              .......I find dead people

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                As Julie said if you could look at the PRs for baptisms for the children (If they were baptised) it would be cheaper than buying certs as there are 4 possible registrations for Thomas, the one Julie found plus the following from freebmd
                                1841 Q3 26 2
                                1841 Q3 26 42
                                1842 Q4 26 31 all Abergavenny

                                Also a possibility for Elizabeth 1843 Q3 26 43

                                Unfortunately there are 5 death entries for John Smith and 7 for Elizabeth Smith between 1851 and 1861 in the Abergavenny area.
                                I'm sure I found possibilities for the children in 1861 and I think they were all servants but I have to go now. If they are not found by someone else will look again later

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Hi everyone ,
                                  I had the 3 birthcertificates for Thomas but no luck ,this is why I had Sarahs ,to give me Elizabeths maiden name,they seem to be an elusive family but maybe families were in those days ,is it possible that John and Elizabeth were not married?I do appreciate the imput from everyone, cath

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
                                    You also need to be aware of the patronymic naming system used at that time (and later) in parts of Wales ....which could mean a child's "surname" will often be different to that of either of his/her parents.
                                    If a birth was registered after 1837 no surname is actually given for the child - it is inferred from the father's name if one is entered in that column of the register. For parish records they often wrote down what the wanted as there was no set requirement for certain details.

                                    Margaret

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      If you are a descendant of Thomas do you have him in any other census apart from 1851? Not having much luck finding him

                                      I found an interesting census for 1861 but it doesn't prove anything but an interesting coincidence.

                                      1861 4 South Street, North Town Aldershot, Surrey
                                      Piece 430 Folio172 Page 21
                                      The family are James and Elizabeth Elliott but it is their visitors who are interesting

                                      Mary Ann Rees 1837 Servant
                                      Louisa Smith 1841 Visitor Servant
                                      Elizabeth Smith 1843 Visitor servant all born Wales

                                      Edit to say have found a Mary Ann Rees and a Lowisa (as transcribed) Smith whose birth dates fit living in Bedwellty in 1851.
                                      Last edited by Frazzled; 01-10-12, 13:14.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I have got my Thomas in the 1871 census,he is down as being born in Blaina Monmouthshire he married Ann Saunders in 1868 and is living in Pontypridd Glamorgan,they have 2 children David and Rachel,by 1881 they have 4 children still living in the same place but by 1891 they are back in Bedwellty ,where my Grandfather Thomas was born ,they were not very imaginative with their names ,cath

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