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How do you record dates?

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  • How do you record dates?

    The ones in the early 1700s and before, when Jan-Feb-Mar were the last three months of the year? I see they are often recorded using both years, e.g., 1714/15, but my software doesn't support those kinds of dates (I think).

    So, if you had a date 3 Mar 1714/15 would you write 3 Mar 1714 or 3 Mar 1715?

    Oh, and - is there a name for this, so I can search for it easily?

    thanks
    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 24-09-12, 03:01.

  • #2
    The change you are referring to is the change from the Julian Calendar to the Gregorian Calendar. The change involved moving the start of the New Year from 25th March to 1st January and also "lost" eleven days in September 1752 to bring the calendar back into line with the seasons.

    Dates pre 1752 (in England) for Jan-Mar each year are generally shown as you suggest e.g. "Feb 20th 1714/1715" and referred to as "double dates" - sometimes you may also see dates listed as NS (New Style) or OS (Old Style).

    It gets more complicated because different countries changed at different times (Scotland in 1600).

    What software are you using ? Most Family Tree packages support "double dates", Family Tree Maker certainly does.
    Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
    Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

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    • #3
      Lately I have been putting the "old style" year. If someone was baptised in Jan 1715, then I know it was at the end of 1715, not the beginning, so I just put that year. If you put 1715/1716, it's just a reminder that it would have been in 1716 if the year began in January, and do we need to be reminded ?

      My PAF software will take the double dates, but does not like if I put "Mar Q" - it will always tell me the date is not standard, which annoys me no end, but accepts it.

      I thought about transferring to another software programme, but none I looked at likes the "Mar Q" and I could not face the thousands of corrections it would have needed, so I have stayed with PAF.

      Du
      Diane
      Sydney Australia
      Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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      • #4
        Family Historian supports dates such as 1657/58 but NOT if you try using 1657/8. I use these type of entries in FH. Also FH will support "Q1" for March Quarter.

        Elsewhere I tend to make them into "new style" dates. One reason for this is the databases I make for baptism, marriages and burials. It gets complicated when a child dies within the first year of birth and the data is sorted on date, making the child look as if it died before it was baptised.

        I know its not correct to change the record for my own convenience but I had also added a lot of events from the National Burial Index who apparently do use "new style" dates. The whole thing was getting too complicated then!

        Anne
        Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 24-09-12, 11:59.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
          The change you are referring to is the change from the Julian Calendar to the Gregorian Calendar. The change involved moving the start of the New Year from 25th March to 1st January and also "lost" eleven days in September 1752 to bring the calendar back into line with the seasons.

          Dates pre 1752 (in England) for Jan-Mar each year are generally shown as you suggest e.g. "Feb 20th 1714/1715" and referred to as "double dates" - sometimes you may also see dates listed as NS (New Style) or OS (Old Style).

          It gets more complicated because different countries changed at different times (Scotland in 1600).

          What software are you using ? Most Family Tree packages support "double dates", Family Tree Maker certainly does.
          Thanks, Antony - I've now read wikipedia about Julian & Gregorian dates. They discuss the conversion only under the Gregorian date article.

          I've actually used Julian dates, but only for tracking dates in a database. I knew there were some strange changes that happened in the distant past, but never had to figure out the details.

          Thanks!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dicole View Post
            Lately I have been putting the "old style" year. If someone was baptised in Jan 1715, then I know it was at the end of 1715, not the beginning, so I just put that year. If you put 1715/1716, it's just a reminder that it would have been in 1716 if the year began in January, and do we need to be reminded ?

            My PAF software will take the double dates, but does not like if I put "Mar Q" - it will always tell me the date is not standard, which annoys me no end, but accepts it.

            I thought about transferring to another software programme, but none I looked at likes the "Mar Q" and I could not face the thousands of corrections it would have needed, so I have stayed with PAF.

            Du
            Thanks, Di (not Du?)
            Why do you put 'Q' - for quarter, e.g., the quarter the birth was registered? PAF does handle 'bef' - I think? I've not been using it lately. I would record them the way that I do on Ancestry - e.g., "bef 1 Jan 1900"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Anne in Carlisle View Post
              Family Historian supports dates such as 1657/58 but NOT if you try using 1657/8. I use these type of entries in FH. Also FH will support "Q1" for March Quarter.

              Elsewhere I tend to make them into "new style" dates. One reason for this is the databases I make for baptism, marriages and burials. It gets complicated when a child dies within the first year of birth and the data is sorted on date, making the child look as if it died before it was baptised.

              I know its not correct to change the record for my own convenience but I had also added a lot of events from the National Burial Index who apparently do use "new style" dates. The whole thing was getting too complicated then!

              Anne
              Thanks, Anne - I am using FH these days, and had missed that nuance. I've tried it now.

              I dislike dates that don't line up - when I write reports, I'd like all the dates to make nice columns. It's prettier, but it also makes inconsistencies and gaps easier to spot. So ranges, and now Julian years recorded in Gregorian calendar, make ragged columns.

              BTW - I noticed that FH allows you to record a date as a "Julian" date - the option to enter the cross over year disappears. I haven't tested it, but I suspect if you entered the dates in your example as Julian dates, FH would correctly sort the events you listed.

              Sarah
              Last edited by PhotoFamily; 24-09-12, 15:49.

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              • #8
                Ah, yes but my BMB data (for a One Name Society) is in an Excel file and runs to over 16,000 parish records!!

                Anne

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                • #9
                  I record dates exactly as I find them in original documents and I do not correct them in any way because sure as eggs, some clever duck will come along and correct them anyway. I have seen many a date on the LDs which has been corrected at least three times - infuriating.

                  OC

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                  • #10
                    Anne - what's a "BMB"?

                    OC - thanks - you don't have any insight into my Land Tax question?

                    As mentioned previously, FH does allow you to record that it was a Julian date. I've now run a report: the date prints with a "[J]" in front - once again breaking the clean line of dates. Still haven't checked to see if it correctly sorts Julian events within the same Julian year.
                    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 24-09-12, 18:12.

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                    • #11
                      Baptism, Marriage and Burial!! (do not confuse with BMD = birth marriage and death)

                      Anne

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                      • #12
                        I've also seen the term CMB used, for Christening, Marriage and Burial.

                        Tim
                        "If we're lucky, one day our names and dates will appear in our descendants' family trees."

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                        • #13
                          Now I have just realised that if you save a freebmd entry into your ancestry tree, it uses Jan xxxx not Mar for the quarter - when you access the record it says Jan-Mar xxxx, but only shows as Jan in the overview. Now I have dates all over the place !!

                          I think its time to stop adding people and do a review of everyone I already have !

                          Di (not Du, sorry I was tired)
                          Diane
                          Sydney Australia
                          Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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                          • #14
                            And for anyone using the Family Search website, they don't use "double dates" (i.e. 1730/31).

                            So, until the calendar changed in 1752, you could have a child Christened on 31 December 1730, and buried the following day, but the burial date would be recorded on the FS website as 1 Jan 1730.

                            Now this sounds to me as if the child was buried 364 days before it was Christened, but them's the FS rules.

                            STG
                            Last edited by SmallTownGirl; 25-09-12, 18:42. Reason: punctuation
                            Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

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                            • #15
                              I haven't looked recently at people in the affected period in my FTM 2010 tree, but I know that earlier versions inserted double years automatically and it couldn't be turned off.
                              Last edited by Uncle John; 25-09-12, 20:27.
                              Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                              • #16
                                The trouble is, if you are working from a transcription you often don't know whether the date has been "corrected" or not.

                                It's fine if you can see the original document, then I record it as is, because I won't forget that it's the end of the year not the beginning.

                                If it's a transcription which uses the / convention I record the year as it would have been at the time. If it doesn't say whether it's "corrected" or not, and I can't find out, I record what the transcription says. If there's an infant burial of the same child I can sometimes correct the baptism year.

                                I would prefer to always record the year as it would have been at the time, but it's not always possible.

                                Anne

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