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need the experts..spicer/bartlett disappeared

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  • need the experts..spicer/bartlett disappeared

    I could possible be in the wrong thread because this family is within the last 100years ??

    My mother had an aunt that just seemed to disappear..she was born ELLEN ROSE SPICER in 1908 cheshunt,hertfordshire, to francis john spicer and edith bartlett

    Edith dies in 1914, and 6 year old ellen rose is given over to her mothers brother (her 3 siblings stay with father) and his wife - william samuel collings bartlett and emily ann louise (nee harper)

    william and emily have a son john william and live in hoddesdon, hertfordshire in 1911
    I have a letter sent from emily to ellens father asking him not to try to make any further contact as the child is in her charge and is fine, this was dated july 1917 from an address in battersea, london.

    I have william and emily at the address on the letter on the electoral roll in 1919 but from there nothing.
    I have a death and a will for william who dies on 1956 in wolverhampton,staffs - he leaves his estate to son john william, who is the informant but strangly no address given.
    I have the death for emily in 1972 in brent, london, the informant is the care home manager.

    So any ideas where i can search for ellen rose, the family were all positive that she was not adopted (family papers left by grandfather were very organised and complete, so it appears to be an agreement between them)

    I have tried a search for more children to william and emily but nothing seems to match up.

    bemused and brain fuddled ....
    Lorraine

  • #2
    An Ellen Rose Spicer - birth date 24th October 1908 died July 1986 aged 77 in Solihull West Midlands ref 34 86 if that's any help?
    Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 16-09-12, 15:17.
    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

    Comment


    • #3
      It would be a problem on here loltel if you had named living/or possibly living people but I have now found a possible death for John William Bartlett - born 12th November 1908 aged 62 died Oct-Dec 1970 in Wolverhampton Staffordshire ref 9b 2321
      Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 16-09-12, 15:32.
      Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks chrissie

        I looked at it that the youngest would be 104, so a fair shout they are all passed on now.

        I had seen the death record for that ellen rose but mine was born november 3rd

        I cant find any link between brent and wolverhampton, unless they were separated i suppose.

        also john william is on the will as a shop keeper, i have searched the directories but nothing shows up.

        Do you know of any other business directories or where i could find wolverhampton records for business.
        Lorraine

        Comment


        • #5
          It's possible that whoever registered her birth got the wrong birth date perhaps? I couldn't find a likely death that I could tie up with a marriage I'm afraid.

          The fact that you said the father died in Wolverhampton made me think that the son's death could be the right one and Solihull isn't a million miles away. I'm not sure why Emily would die in london unless they were separated, as you say, or she had family in the area perhaps?

          I'm afraid I don't know any other directories that you could check but hopefully someone more knowledgable will come along soon.
          Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

          Comment


          • #6
            well emily ann louisa harper is a bit of a mystery family wise, i cant find a birth for her, she states on 1911 and 1901 that she was born in kensington.
            in the 1901 she is a lady's maid at elmley castle but i cant find her in 1891
            On her marriage cert her father is robert john charles harper (dec'd) and i cant find him either in census,
            In 1911 she has an ann gibbon living with her, tracing her back she seems to be the grandmother, so confusing lol

            It could be i am looking to hard to associate her family but cant come up with any siblings.
            Lorraine

            Comment


            • #7
              Well the birth appears to have been registered in June 1883 - Kensington ref 1a 114
              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

              Comment


              • #8
                Are you saying there is no address for the informant on the death cert? I wonder if that is because he was present at the death. What address did William Samuel die at?

                Is there any indication that Ellen Rose may have become known as Bartlett?

                Margaret

                Comment


                • #9
                  There's a marriage

                  Ellen R Spicer
                  Spouse Surname: Farquharson (John H M)
                  Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1942
                  Registration district: Hendon
                  Inferred County: Middlesex
                  Volume Number: 3a
                  Page Number: 1847

                  Hendon is near to Brent so could that be a possibility?

                  Margaret

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well this looks like Emily with her father in 1891. His birth Robert John Charles Harper - March 1843 ref Newington 4 337

                    Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 16-09-12, 18:58.
                    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                      Are you saying there is no address for the informant on the death cert? I wonder if that is because he was present at the death. What address did William Samuel die at?

                      Is there any indication that Ellen Rose may have become known as Bartlett?

                      Margaret
                      hi margaret

                      all thats on the cert is informant john william bartlett and he died at 54 westbourne road, penn, wolverhampton.

                      We have nothing to indicate that her name was changed, the letter we have was the last known contact, despite all attempts by her father and siblings, ellen was never seen again. My mother is now 92 and it seems she needs to find some closure on her aunts life, mum has very vivid memories of her mothers stories of the events leading up to ellen leaving. gran was 11 when her mum died and remembered ellen holding her dads hand at the funeral and the day they came to take ellen.
                      In the letter emily bartlett refers to ellen as rosie and as what looks like pitrie ? she says the children are all growing fast and she does not want any upsets to be caused by the older ones telling tales - this is why i think there must have been other children apart from john william.

                      Its all so frustrating so close but so far.
                      Lorraine

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
                        Well this looks like Emily with her father in 1891. His birth Robert John Charles Harper - March 1843 ref Newington 4 337

                        http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=12615421

                        Oh my gawd, now we are in hampshire, got around a bit didnt they but still no blooming siblings
                        Lorraine

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by loltel View Post
                          she says the children are all growing fast and she does not want any upsets to be caused by the older ones telling tales - this is why i think there must have been other children apart from john william.
                          Perhaps she was referring to Ellen's siblings growing fast and she didn't want them to say anything to Ellen?
                          Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
                            Perhaps she was referring to Ellen's siblings growing fast and she didn't want them to say anything to Ellen?
                            quite possible, very good lateral thinking there lol

                            I have just come across these entries in the wolverhampton red book, when i searched for shiloh, all i got was a church description ???


                            ( bottom of page, centre column)



                            under tomato growers
                            Lorraine

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                              There's a marriage

                              Ellen R Spicer
                              Spouse Surname: Farquharson (John H M)
                              Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1942
                              Registration district: Hendon
                              Inferred County: Middlesex
                              Volume Number: 3a
                              Page Number: 1847

                              Hendon is near to Brent so could that be a possibility?

                              Margaret
                              she may be the ellen rosina farquharson d.oct 2003 camden london. b.12 may 1920.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                                she may be the ellen rosina farquharson d.oct 2003 camden london. b.12 may 1920.
                                That looks right so puts that idea out of the frame!

                                Margaret

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  "In the letter emily bartlett refers to ellen as rosie and as what looks like pitrie ? she says the children are all growing fast and she does not want any upsets to be caused by the older ones telling tales - this is why i think there must have been other children apart from john william."

                                  Can you scan that bit in and let us have a look so we can see what we think it says?

                                  Margaret
                                  Last edited by margaretmarch; 17-09-12, 11:28.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                                    "In the letter emily bartlett refers to ellen as rosie and as what looks like pitrie ? she says the children are all growing fast and she does not want any upsets to be caused by the older ones telling tales - this is why i think there must have been other children apart from john william."

                                    Can you scan that bit in and let us have a look so we can see what we think it says?

                                    Margaret
                                    Thanks margaret, i will be home from work soon and will atempt to scan it in, though the letter is nearly 100 years old and a bit thin and faded.
                                    Lorraine

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Scan receipt2.pdf
                                      Scan receipt1.pdf

                                      I have attached the complete letter, there are no fears that anyone is still alive.

                                      hope i have done it right
                                      Lorraine

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        It looks like a 'pet' name of Pitrie for Ellen Rose that has been used. Difficult to say whether Emily is referring to just the two children or more.

                                        Margaret

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