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  • Robert Leader, Cheltenham, Glos

    I know it should/could be in the family history section, but I thought more people would see it here. I saw this on another thread - it has to be attended to asap so I thought I'd post it on here

    I am currently in Vancouver, Canada and I have just been in a shop in North
    Vancouver close to where I am staying and there is a large framed portrait
    of a 19th century gentleman. On the back is written: Robert LEADER,
    Cheltenham, Glou, England.

    Thought I would let the list know as it is a small world and you may just
    have a link to him. I am happy to get more info such as a photo (if they
    would allow me to) and cost of post and packing etc if required. I am here
    for one more week. If you know of a more appropriate list that this could be
    posted to then I am happy for that too. It would be lovely if he found a
    home with his descendants."


    Contact me and I'll give you the email address
    Last edited by jood; 26-08-12, 06:49.
    jood sadly died in November 2019.

  • #2
    Jood,
    Have moved your thread to Family History Research - which you may be surprised to know is the most visited section of the forum!
    As always, we don't allow emails to be published on the open forum (removed from initial post) - if anyone needs the email address then please send Jood a pm (private message).
    Elaine







    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Elaine
      jood sadly died in November 2019.

      Comment


      • #4
        Been having a look and there is a Robert leader born 1845 Cheltenham Gloucestershire, in 1891 as a widower Butcher in 36 Montpelier Street Westminster and looks like his death is registered in Jun 1891 in St George Hanover Square? the only other Robert Leader I could find born in Cheltenham was in 1894 ??? Robert Charles Leader
        Wouldnt it be wonderful if somebody got that portrait?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
          Been having a look and there is a Robert leader born 1845 Cheltenham Gloucestershire, <snip>
          I take it that that birth was 1845q1 (per FreeBMD)

          I've found a Cheltenham Glos birth on the Glos BMD site...
          Robert LEADER, b 1844, Cheltenham, mmn = HATTERSLEY
          I'd guess that the birth was very late in 1844.

          Christine
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

          Comment


          • #6
            The only relevant marriage (at all!) seems to be 1842q3 Worksop (Notts!), between Robert LEADER and Ann HATTERSLEY.

            Christine
            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

            Comment


            • #7
              there is somebody on GR with a Robert Leader born Cheltenham 1847 ?
              Last edited by Guest; 26-08-12, 16:16.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Glos BMD site has some siblings for him:
                1847 Louisa
                1849 Elizabeth
                1851 William
                1853 Jane
                1857 Henry

                Christine
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                Comment


                • #9
                  They seem to be here in 1851: 19, Clarence Hotel, Clarence Street, Cheltenham (RG1973/705 fo 705 p 24)
                  Father Robert gives his poB as Gosbeck, SFK, and Ann's PoB is Wakefield - probably explains the Worksop marriage.

                  By 1861, Robert senr has died, and the family is at 7, Suffolk Parade, Cheltenham, with Ann's PoB "Bramley, Yorks". Robert junr is not with them.

                  Christine
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In 1871, Robert junr is a 25-yr-old butcher's assistant in Clerkenwell. (RG10/388 fo 49 p 27)
                    In 1881, he's with wife, Frances 26 (b St Mary Clyst, DEV), and family at 2, Adrian Mews, Kensington. And he's a butcher - aged 34 - b Cheltenham.

                    The marriage shows up in the LMA records on Ancestry in 1877 q3 (just!) in Battesea (Wandsworth), with expected names/occupations. No obvious connections to the witness names, but...

                    Christine
                    Last edited by Christine in Herts; 26-08-12, 16:32.
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There are three associated baptisms:
                      1881 Charles Sherwell (using mmn as middle name)
                      1883 Francis John
                      1886 Albert Samuel

                      Christine
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Charles Sherwell would have been a nice easy one to follow up... perhaps! - but he died in Fulham in 1886q4, aged only 5.

                        And - this is looking tragic! - Albert Samuel died 1886q4 Fulham, too, aged 0.

                        Horrendous: Francis John died 1886q4 Fulham, too, aged 3.

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        Looking at the GRO index: 1886q4
                        Fulham 1a 171
                        Charles Sherwell age 5
                        Francis John age 3
                        Henry Walter age 9
                        Fulham 1a 174
                        Albert Samuel age 0
                        Frances age 32

                        How does anyone survive that!

                        Christine
                        Last edited by Christine in Herts; 26-08-12, 16:57.
                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          When I put Albert Samuel into Ancestry and looked at the trees, there are 3 public trees which include his name. None of them gives him any siblings, so I suspect that he must be only a twig in their trees.

                          Christine
                          Last edited by Christine in Herts; 26-08-12, 16:49.
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not surprisingly, there is a newspaper account "The Tragedy at Fulham". In the light of modern knowledge it would appear that Frances was suffering from a post natal psychosis (rather more than just baby blues or post natal depression). It seems that a son, Robert (presumably Robert Arthur, b 1880q1, St Geo, Hanover Sq), did survive the whole business, but only just. I see that surviving father and son are with his widowed mother, Ann, in Westmister in 1891.

                            Christine
                            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Is there any indication of the age of this Cheltenham gent in the portrait? There seem to be at least three generations - although the last (who survived) was born in London.

                              Christine
                              Last edited by Christine in Herts; 26-08-12, 17:27.
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Young Robert A LEADER seems to have been a draper's apprentice in Luton in 1901 (aged 21).

                                It's probable that he emigrated to Canada in mid-1905. The (free) Canadian immigration records suggest that my deduction is correct - R A LEADER was 25, b Middlesex, and headed to Calgary, as a farm lab. Perhaps that's how the portrait got to Canada?

                                Working against that is a Jan 1917 marriage in Wandsworth of Robert Arthur LEADER, of the right age and parentage, to Violet Clara TRIGG.

                                Christine
                                Last edited by Christine in Herts; 26-08-12, 17:44.
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  There is one person with a Robert LEADER b 1880 Middx on GR - but he's not the St Giles one, for whom there are three.

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    You have been busy Christine ,thats a terrible case isn't it just been reading the newspaper report .

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It turns out that the 1917 marriage doesn't necessarily conflict with him having emigrated: he was a soldier with the CEF., as his Attestation shows up on the Canadian Archives site: http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...e9o9ifm0v144h7

                                      In fact - now I've opened up the image - it doesn't conflict at all...
                                      His DoB/PoB is 7 Jan 1880, London, England.
                                      In 1914 he wasn't married, but still gave Arthur TRIGG, of 24 Larnoch Rd, Hammersmith, London, Eng., as his NoK

                                      It looks as if he arrives back in the 1919-1924 Canada records on Ancestry, along with Violet Clara LEADER.

                                      There's a 1944 CWGC record for a younger namesake in the RCAF. The certificate says he was s/o Arthur and Alice LEADER of Toronto. (Which means we might be able to find out more, because there are quite a lot of records around for Toronto.)

                                      Christine
                                      Last edited by Christine in Herts; 26-08-12, 19:21.
                                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                                        You have been busy Christine ,thats a terrible case isn't it just been reading the newspaper report .
                                        I was intrigued that the Coroner - presumably a gentleman with medical qualifications, was "Mr Braxton Hicks".

                                        Christine
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                        Comment

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