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Looking for robert holman father of robert holman

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  • Looking for robert holman father of robert holman

    Hello Everyone,
    My first brick wall is to find the parents of ROBERT HOLMAN b.1830-32 in Brixton, Surrey.
    He was Christened 8/21/31 in Camberwell, London.
    He died 5/10/1874 I have his death certificate and I also have the Marriage Certificate of he and his Wife, Martha 7/25/1857 at the Parish Church, Marylebone, Middlesex. The marriage certificate shows his FATHER as being ROBERT HOLMAN. (No middle initial)
    I have done as much research as can be done on my computer and did find a possibility but couldn’t prove it because the name of ‘the grandson on a census’ wasn’t correct. If anyone can help with this dilemma it would get me going again. I think I need to ask someone to look up some records but I don’t know what or where. I live in the USA in Florida.
    Thank you for your help!
    Tabatha

  • #2
    As you have his baptism date and place - 21st August 1831 in Camberwell I take it you know that his parents were Robert and Mary Ann Holman and that Robert was a gardener as this information is given in the baptism register.

    Is it the 1841 and 1851 censuses you are looking for?
    There was a 10 year old orphan boy Robert Holman living in Hackney in 1841 who is a possible. He was shown as being born in county (Middlesex) whereas your boy was born in Surrey but whoever filled in the details may not have known where the boy was born.
    Last edited by JudithM; 01-08-12, 07:54.
    Judith passed away in October 2018

    Comment


    • #3
      for everyone's convenience:

      25 jul 1857, st marylebone.
      robert holman- full age, bachelor. valet of st martin in the fields. father- robert holman, a beer shop keeper.
      martha baker- full age, spinster. of st marylebone. father- wm baker, coachman.
      witnesses: edward and lydia elizabeth baker.

      Comment


      • #4
        in 1861, robert and martha are at: 7 turkish baths, conduit place, paddington.

        robert holman- 29, b.1832 brixton surrey. hotel waiter.
        martha- wife, 28, b.1833 enton, middlesex.
        minnie e- dau, 2, b.1859 marylebone middlesex.
        elizabeth m- dau, 1 b.1860 paddington middlesex.

        Comment


        • #5
          in 1851, robert appears to be at westow hill, croydon.

          robert holman- footman, 20, b.1831, brixton surrey.

          employer appears to mary anne masters b.1795, bloomsbury.

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          • #6
            i can't find robert in 1841 for sure, there is a robt holman b.1831 in the london orphan asylum in hackney.

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            • #7
              there are two robert holmans christened in southwark in 1831. both with father's robert. neither one had anything to do with alcohol. how do you know which one is yours?

              1 may 1831, holy trinity, newington. robert holman, son of robert a millwright and patience.
              21 aug 1831, st giles camberwell. robert holman, son of robert a gardener, and mary anne.

              Comment


              • #8
                ok, patience holman appears as a widow with children (kids under initials) in bermondsey in 1851, her son 'r. holman' b.1832, newington is a currier.
                Last edited by kylejustin; 01-08-12, 08:09.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JudithM View Post
                  As you have his baptism date and place - 21st August 1831 in Camberwell I take it you know that his parents were Robert and Mary Ann Holman and that Robert was a gardener as this information is given in the baptism register.

                  Is it the 1841 and 1851 censuses you are looking for?
                  There was a 10 year old orphan boy Robert Holman living in Hackney in 1841 who is a possible. He was shown as being born in county (Middlesex) whereas your boy was born in Surrey but whoever filled in the details may not have known where the boy was born.

                  JudityM, thanks for your reply - yes I have had that info and I have those two censuses but the plot thickens - I really need the father's wife's last name (don't I??) because following that family Robert and Mary in 1881 show a Grandson (Henry Holman) living with that older Robert Holman (father) but the 'real' grandson (Robert Henry Holman) was deceased at 19 yrs old in 1881 and I have his death certificate. I also proved a long life and marriage etc. for that Henry Holman so it is not the same person and therefore I had to conclude that the Robert Holman and MaryAnn are not the right family. If there is another way of looking at that I am interested.
                  Another point of interest is that the birth records of all the7 children of the Robert/Mary Holmans show their mother's name differently ::
                  Fanny, Robert, Julia, Henry, Maryann, Elizabeth and Louisa show their mother as being MaryAnn in 5 cases and Ann in 2. Maybe that doesn't matter, I don't know. I was firmly believing this was the family UNTIL I found that grandson in 1881 and I tried to find another grandson by name of Henry but there just wasn't one.
                  I hope I've made this clear enough to understand - it's difficult to describe. I have not read down further yet on this thread so don't know what others have to say and I'm going there now.
                  Thanks - if u come up with another idea I'm sure open to anything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                    for everyone's convenience:

                    25 jul 1857, st marylebone.
                    robert holman- full age, bachelor. valet of st martin in the fields. father- robert holman, a beer shop keeper.
                    martha baker- full age, spinster. of st marylebone. father- wm baker, coachman.
                    witnesses: edward and lydia elizabeth baker.
                    Hi, Kyle, I'll reply to each of your responses in turn. In this one you have put your finger on another brickwall. This is all correct as you have stated. I have the certificates.
                    But I would like to know where you got the full lname of Lydia Baker. On the certificate it shows the witnesses only as Edward and Lydia Baker. There are a lot of Edwards married to Lydias and I'm trying to find the right one but that's another problem I was going to post. How did you get the middle name and can you find a maiden name for me please??
                    Thank you

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                      in 1861, robert and martha are at: 7 turkish baths, conduit place, paddington.

                      robert holman- 29, b.1832 brixton surrey. hotel waiter.
                      martha- wife, 28, b.1833 enton, middlesex.
                      minnie e- dau, 2, b.1859 marylebone middlesex.
                      elizabeth m- dau, 1 b.1860 paddington middlesex.
                      Yes, Kyle, that's all correct. Martha is my Grandmother. Her birthplace actually is Hendon, not enton. they had it wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                        in 1851, robert appears to be at westow hill, croydon.

                        robert holman- footman, 20, b.1831, brixton surrey.

                        employer appears to mary anne masters b.1795, bloomsbury.

                        OK I had that also as a possibility and the age is right. And do you agree that the rest of his siblings and parents are shown as HALMAN but because he's 20 he's already left home? That's what I have assumed. Or can u find another Robert Holman family which he might have belonged to and left to go to work.
                        Because in 1861 he's already married and no help there to know his parents.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                          i can't find robert in 1841 for sure, there is a robt holman b.1831 in the london orphan asylum in hackney.

                          Yes, I'd made a note of that and someone told me it didn't mean he was an actual orphan or that he was insane (I had thought he might have lost his parents) but he could have been sent there for education or some other reason.
                          That institution included boys and girls schools. I must have done some research on it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                            there are two robert holmans christened in southwark in 1831. both with father's robert. neither one had anything to do with alcohol. how do you know which one is yours?

                            1 may 1831, holy trinity, newington. robert holman, son of robert a millwright and patience.
                            21 aug 1831, st giles camberwell. robert holman, son of robert a gardener, and mary anne.

                            Because St. giles,Camberwell is the one married to Martha. I have some document from my father with martha's name on it and robert born in Brixton.and that is what started me off. Census records show Martha's husband born in Brixton. I'm also thinking, Kyle, that you have put your finger on THAT OTHER FAMILY I talked about earlier as being the wrong one. You've come up with Robert Holman, Newington and son of Robert - that grandson I mentioned before named Henry Holman, living with grandpa in 1881 was from Newington!! So I think you've matched up that wrong family and I have all the information for that family if any one of them is lucky enough to be reading this. Which brings me back to my brickwall. WHO is my Robert's real father?
                            Thankyou, Kyle - I am appreciating this help -

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                              there are two robert holmans christened in southwark in 1831. both with father's robert. neither one had anything to do with alcohol. how do you know which one is yours?

                              1 may 1831, holy trinity, newington. robert holman, son of robert a millwright and patience.
                              21 aug 1831, st giles camberwell. robert holman, son of robert a gardener, and mary anne.

                              Oh oh, on the other hand it's the MaryAnne part that gets me confused - it's that family that have 5 children and leads to that Grandson problem. I really need someone to help me figure out if I'm just confused and overlooking something. My Robert is not from Newington - that grandson was and
                              I have no idea of his parent's names. Only that his Grandpa is Robert.
                              If you'd told me that mary anne was the wife of Newington Robert one problem would be eliminated.
                              But we still don't have a Robert father for Robert married to Mary Anne.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Never mind where u got the middle name of Lydia Baker - I found I had it on the Marriage Certificate. I just didn't have it in my notes. thanks for the reminder.
                                I still can't find who she was - still need her maiden name for the record.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by JudithM View Post
                                  As you have his baptism date and place - 21st August 1831 in Camberwell I take it you know that his parents were Robert and Mary Ann Holman and that Robert was a gardener as this information is given in the baptism register.

                                  Is it the 1841 and 1851 censuses you are looking for?
                                  There was a 10 year old orphan boy Robert Holman living in Hackney in 1841 who is a possible. He was shown as being born in county (Middlesex) whereas your boy was born in Surrey but whoever filled in the details may not have known where the boy was born.

                                  JudithM, I'm wondering now after all these posts to kylejustin, just what makes me and you think that Robert and MaryAnn Holman are parents to Robert. I've focused years on this and always assumed maybe because that's the only record that showed on Family Search? I don't know now. Can you tell me what made you believe they are the parents please??
                                  Thanks --------

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by TABATHA View Post
                                    JudithM, I'm wondering now after all these posts to kylejustin, just what makes me and you think that Robert and MaryAnn Holman are parents to Robert. I've focused years on this and always assumed maybe because that's the only record that showed on Family Search? I don't know now. Can you tell me what made you believe they are the parents please??
                                    Thanks --------
                                    Sorry Tabatha but the only evidence I had was that YOU had said you had his christening date and place. Didn't realise that you had not proved this.
                                    Judith passed away in October 2018

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      i think the problem lies in the fact we can't find robert jnr at home with family on any census, and his father may have changed occupation from jnr's birth to the census. i couldn't find any deaths for the parents of the robert from camberwell, so had wondered if the ophans home robert was correct.

                                      as for allt he births on ancestry for robert holman as father, i don't think they are the same parents for most of those children.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        i think you have many different robert and mary anne's.

                                        robert charles holman b.1825 st george in the east, parents robert a master mariner and mary of lucas st.

                                        fanny b.1829 st dunstan in the west, parents robert a groom and mary anne of mitre court.

                                        robert b.1831 camberwell, parents robert a gardener and mary anne.

                                        mary anne b.1838 kennington, parents robert a groom and mary anne of stockwell.
                                        julia and henry are this mary anne's siblings.

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