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**Guest** · 31-07-12, 22:51

I doubt there would be a death cert ? although I could be wrong? there are lists of marine deaths on Thenationalarchives

**Christine in Herts** · 01-08-12, 20:30

I was under the impression that a (special kind of) death cert could be issued without a body if there were sufficient circumstantial evidence - and possibly after a period of time (like 7 years).

This appears to be a reasonable account of the current arrangement: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7128867.stm
This also appears to be authoritative: http://askville.amazon.com/UK-law-mi...uestId=5322081
But that doesn't mean that the same rules applied in the C19th.

Christine

**Uncle John** · 02-08-12, 11:18

My great-great uncle died at sea of a heart attack in 1872 and is in the GRO Overseas deaths (Marine register). Age and profession were "unknown".

**Christine in Herts** · 02-08-12, 19:36

Originally posted by Uncle John View Post

My great-great uncle died at sea of a heart attack in 1872 and is in the GRO Overseas deaths (Marine register). Age and profession were "unknown".

I think there's a distinction. Your great-great uncle's death was identifiable, and there would have been a body - at the time, at least, even if buried at sea - but a loss, presumed drowned, at sea is a different matter: the death has to be presumed and is by no means certain... as we have seen with fraudulent deaths in relatively recent news stories.

Christine

**Uncle John** · 02-08-12, 21:02

True. I also have a very remote twig, a mariner reputed to have drowned in the Bristol Channel. There's a good match death recorded in Axbridge district, for which I couldn't justify buying the certificate. I strongly suspect that "drowned at sea" may turn out to be a family tale.

**Olde Crone Holden** · 02-08-12, 21:50

No help I'm sure, but I'm uneasy about the 9 year gap between the two youngest children.

The seven year rule has always applied I think - someone can be declared dead after seven years if "reasonable efforts" have been made to find them. In case of a possible drowning that would depend on witnesses and their evidence might mean a death could be presumed with near certainty. Someone falling over the deack of a ship into 40ft waves five hundred miles from land can be safely assumed to be drowned. Someone last seen staggering along the canal tow path can't.

But whether anyone went to the trouble of declaring him dead and getting a death cert would really depend on whether there was any insurance money to be claimed. Otherwise, why bother.

OC

**kylejustin** · 03-08-12, 05:26

well there might be complications of not declaring someone dead if there wasn't money. like remarriage and such. and a pension maybe.

**merleyone** · 03-08-12, 11:37

What we tend to refer to as a death certificate is actually a certified copy of an entry in a Register and I would have thought that if there is a register entry, there should be no difficulty in obtaining a 'death certificate'. When searching on FMP for deaths at sea, it specific entries as 'Maritime BMD details' with no mention of Register. Although the original image is clearly of a book, or Register, no heading to the page is visible but as one of the columns is headed 'Name of deceased' it must be a register by any other name. A successful search for details of a 3xgt uncle of mine showed that he and three others were listed against a named but very small vessel which had been reported missing since 23/12/1894. There were various pieces of information between 21/1/1895 and 21/6/1895 about this loss and month 6 of 1895 was recorded as the date of their deaths. A contemporaneous newspaper report in January 1895 had mentioned him as the Mate of this vessel which had put in to Berwick with torn sails in December 1894, whilst on passage from Penzance to Arbroath, but 'had sailed within a few days and encountered a fierce storm, since when nothing had been heard of her'. My man was a Freeman of Berwick and, before I found the details on FMP, I had seen their records of 1896/7 which then recorded his wife as his widow but whether the Freemen had ever seen any formal documentation is not known. The reference for the image on FMP is given as BT334, Box 0011, which looks more like a TNA reference for the book/register but, as the FMP image can be downloaded in its entirety, the reference may not be crucial in many cases.

Shirley,
on another matter here, if Thomas Burton married in Glasgow in 1870, the entry should show details of his parents. Have you been able to use any of that information to search the censuses for Thomas?
Also, for what it's worth, the Wicklow was a ship of 987 tonnnage, operated by the Clyde Shipping Co., and was sunk in collision with ss Amphion on 27/2/1885 off Portpatrick, which might have some relevance if your man's family resided in Dundalk.

merleyone

**Olde Crone Holden** · 03-08-12, 18:23

Merleyone

there is no registration of death in this case (or not one which can be found), which is the only "death certificate" available to anyone - the "cause of death" certificate is surrendered when a death is registered.

Kyle

You didn't have to prove you were a widow in order to remarry. If you did, no one would ever have committed bigamy! I'm not sure about maritime pensions in the 1800s but if there were any, it would surely be the employer who paid it and he would already have the circumstantial evidence of the death.

OC

**merleyone** · 03-08-12, 20:25

OC

I am in total agreement with you and the 'cause of death' certificate is key to any entry in the Register of Deaths. However, we sometimes have to accept secondary records as indicating the probability of a death and in truth that is all the Maritime BMD details as shown on FMP can be. The difficulty in identifying a person in those records is that often a man is referred to by surname only and, in addition, there may have been absolutely no witnesses to his loss at sea/death. Many entries show simply 'Decks swept', most probably indicating that following such an event the man or men listed were later found to be missing. Nevertheless, the Maritime BMD details include the only record of many (probable) deaths at sea and are a useful tool for researchers, particularly if other records are found in support.

The relevance of the Berwick Freemen records in my man's case is that any Berwick Freeman, resident in Berwick, received a share of rents received by the Guild of Freemen in respect of land the Guild owned. That share depended on the quality of the meadows 'allocated' to the particular Freeman and the allocation was made on the basis of seniority alone. On the death of a Freeman, all those junior moved up the list for entitlement eventually onto meadows with a greater yield but if he left a widow and she had been his first wife, she took his place in respect of a share of the 'Meadow money'. Not quite a pension but naturally, the Guild had to be as certain about the death as they would originally have needed to have been about the lawful state of a marriage.

merleyone

**Shirley silver surfer** · 05-08-12, 00:58

Thanks for all these replies (sorry, the family came down for a few days and I have only just been able to log in again!) There is plenty to think about in what you say.
I do know the parents of Thomas (from his marriage cert), but have been unable to trace them either. I suspect that they might also be Irish. I certainly have been unable to find them on any census records.
One odd thing is that Thomas's mother was called Jane Gorman, the same name as his wife! I suppose she might have been a cousin of his wife's father Nicholas, (or a sister even). His father was listed as John Burton, a cotton weaver (deceased). I discovered recently that Dundalk was not only a fishing port but also exported cambric - so John could have worked as a weaver there.

My husband has just bought me a subscription to Findmypast.ie so I hope to find something there.......one can always hope!

OC My grandmother was Mary Ann and I only recently established the existence of her sister Margaret - there don't appear to be children born between them. Jane did not re-marry after Thomas's death.
Merleyone - I did do a bit of research on the Wicklow and found the record of the sinking the year after Thomas Burton's drowning - in fact it occurred only about a month after his loss was reported.

I must go back now and re-read carefully al your helpful comments ......I really enjoy this kind of puzzle.
Shirley

**Shirley silver surfer** · 19-05-13, 21:29

I know that there has been a long gap but I am still looking for the death of Thomas (or any other reference to him for that matter!)
I sent for the death cert of the one who died on the Wicklow and drew a blank - that Thomas Burton was a passenger (a soldier) and was presumably swept overboard. There are only two other deaths at sea of Thomas Burtons in the years between 1881 (the birth of Margaret) and 1894 (when he was listed as 'deceased' on my grandmother's first marriage certificate). I now have my second choice certificate. This Thomas Burton was a member of the crew of the Statesman and he died in January 1891 and was said to be 48 (he would have been 45 according to his marriage certificate). I would like to think that this is the correct one but there is no real confirmation as his nationality is said to be 'Liverpool'?? and his last address was 8 Wenton Street, Liverpool - which I am unable to find on any census. There is no mention of Dundalk where his wife was living.
Do you think I should accept this as the correct one? It goes against the grain a bit as I like to verify all my facts.
Maybe someone out there knows about Wenton Street?

**liz hutchison** · 20-05-13, 04:17

Just a thought if there is a Museum in Dundalk they usually have list of missing seaman and fishermen, lizzy

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