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Help with James O'Neil from Thurles Tipperary

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  • Help with James O'Neil from Thurles Tipperary

    The following is very long winded but if anyone can help me crack or even dent this brick wall I would be very grateful!

    I have feelers all over the internet but nobody has been able to come up with anything so far!

    James O'Neil was baptised 1840 Thurles Tipperary to Michael Neale and Margaret Cummins.
    Brother Michael was baptised 1827 Thurles and married Allicia Martley/Markley Thurles 1854 had one child and then went to live in Cork City.
    Sister Margaret was baptised 1837 Thurles married Denis Drscoll 1856 but Denis died and she remarried to Patrick Martley 1871. She had two children in Thurles and emigrated to Albany NY where she had more children.
    Sister Mary was not baptised in Thurles but she married Thomas Martley Thurles and had many children. She died of cancer 1876 Thurles and Thomas and family moved to Albany NY.

    Marriage of Michael Neale and Margaret Cummins took place probably around 1825 but not in Thurles and I am still searching for that marriage. Mary and John were not baptised Thurles so no doubt if I find their baptisms I might find the marriage in the same place!

    I came across rootsweb and found someone researching the same family and left a message. A different branch of the family contacted me and over several e mails we realised we had the correct family as they were descendants of Patrick Martley and Margaret O'Neil. More importantly they had copies of letters sent to them from Ireland between 1857 and 1901. When I had copies of these letters I found one from Michael O'Neill in Cork (my Great Grandfather)to a brother John O'Neil in Albany NY 1875 signed with the words "God Save Ireland", just 8 years after the Manchester Martyrs had immortalised these words on the scaffold. there was a letter from James O'Neil to John 1859 detailing letters he had written to an Irish newspaper. There was a letter from Michael Neale Thurles to John O'Neil stating that James was an apprentice Baker or Draper to friend in Limerick. I searched Irish Newspapers and found letters that James wrote up to 1864 and then silence until 1869 Directory when he turns up staying in Albany with John O'Neil and his family and working working for RG Dunn and Co a Mercantile Agency NY. I have written to this agency with no luck. That is the last that anybody knows of James. There are two stories circulating.

    The Americans have a story that James fled from Ireland with a price on his head and became involved with skirmishes on the Canadian/American border. I have proved that this was a John O'Neill from Monaghan, nothing to do with our family.

    I have a story that the O'Neill family in Kilbarry Cork "hid" the Manchester Martys and that would have been my Great Grandfather Michael but judging by the letters that James wrote I think he was implicated in the Manchester Martyrs story. So what happened to James?????? He cannot be found on any American Census and any descendents he might have are not to be found either. We thought we had found him on the 1880 Albany Census but retracing that James O'Neil he is there for much longer than mine could have been so he hasd now been ruled out.

    A new contact in Ireland on the Martley side had also heard about the Manchester Martyrs Story so I really feel there is some mileage in this story. I was told the story in 1990 by an old Uncle of 85 still living in the home where the Manchester Martyrs were supposed to have been hidden, but sadly I did not pursue the questioning and he died before I could get to see him again

    Janet

  • #2
    Photo Family has asked a couple of questions on General Board so I have now put my query on to Research and answering those here.

    John O'Neil has been researched and found for every census in Albany until his death 1904 but although there are a few James O'Neil in Albany, none fit in with my James who likes to use his mother's name and often calls himself James Cummins O'Neil or Jas C O'Neil. A lot is known about John to include letters, death date and burial, obituary and where he is buried. I have a photo of his gravestone with many other names of his hildren also buried there.The Martleys have also been well researched and most found in the same cemetery. I have traced some of John's sons in later census and burials but then with so many O'Neil I have lost track of them after 1930.

    Janet
    Last edited by Janet; 23-07-12, 11:16.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Janet View Post
      A lot is known about John to include letters, death date and burial, obituary and where he is buried. I have a photo of his gravestone with many other names of his hildren also buried there.Janet
      Can you share where/which cemetery? Have you obtained a plat record of the plot?
      Have you obtained an obit for him? His will/probate if there was one? Have you played with the strange online ny newspaper database?

      Sorry to ask you questions that have probably been asked and answered many times before.

      Originally posted by Janet View Post
      The Martleys have also been well researched and most found in the same cemetery. I have traced some of John's sons in later census and burials but then with so many O'Neil I have lost track of them after 1930. Janet
      familysearch should complete 1940 census indexing within a month

      Comment


      • #4
        Photofamily,

        Just been digging around have come up with the following:


        John J O'Neill born Tipperary left Ireland 1849/1850 and I think I have him on a passenger list. I say think because with a name like John O'Neill it is difficult to be absolutely certain! He married Elinor Minor about 1852/3. Nobody has been able to obtain a marriage certificate or even details where they married. Both John J and Elinor are buried St Agnes Cemetery Albany. I also have what I think is John J's Naturalisation Papers


        Michael O'Neil was born c 1854 and died c 1858 Buried St Agnes
        Francis J 1856 died ?
        Michael W 1859 died 1916
        John J 1862 died 1942?
        Margaret E 1864 died 1914 Married Thomas De Graw Buried St Agnes
        Eugene J 1866 to 1911 Buried St Agnes
        Mary 1868 only found on one census 1870 so presume she died young?
        Minnie 1859 died 1953. On 1900 Census is a clerk in a recruitment office. Buried St Agnes
        Agnes 1870 married PC Duggan. No idea when she married or where or when she died or buried.
        Catherine c1874 died 1876 Buried St Agnes
        Alfred M is the final son born 1877 and died 1951. He married Clara Powers who died 1963. Both buried St Agnes.

        John left no will that I could find and I searched but his obituray did state that he had been a prominent member of the Iron Moulders Union for 10 years in Albany. I have written to Albany but unable to get a search done at the State Library. I could go there in person to look for the records!!

        I will have to check other census I have to see what others I have found but the further away I get from my objective James the less I am going to know as I cannot find James on a census with any of the family except for that one entry in the Albany Directory where he is with brother John 1869 as a boarder working for RG Dun and Co. Maybe he went back to Ireland/England/elsewhere in the States.

        Janet

        PS All children born Albany, Cohoes area I think.
        Last edited by Janet; 23-07-12, 16:22.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          I will have to check other census I have to see what others I have found but the further away I get from my objective James the less I am going to know
          I agree that it is important to stay focused on James. Since John is the last known connection, and it is a family connection, I think he could provide a link to James. It sounds like you have the obit.
          Originally posted by Janet View Post

          Both John J and Elinor are buried St Agnes Cemetery Albany.
          If I understand correctly, no one knows of any sightings of James after 1869 when he was boarding with John. Is it not possible he died soon thereafter? I have ancestors who were buried without headstones. Obtaining information from the cemetery was the only way to determine where they were. So
          Have you obtained a plat record of the plot? Have you contacted the cemetery where John is?

          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          John left no will that I could find
          Where did you look?

          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          I also have what I think is John J's Naturalisation Papers
          Pre 1906 naturalization records are generally not of much use...
          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          Michael O'Neil was born c 1854 and died c 1858 Buried St Agnes
          Francis J 1856 died ?
          Michael W 1859 died 1916
          John J 1862 died 1942?
          Margaret E 1864 died 1914 Married Thomas De Graw Buried St Agnes
          You've seen this?
          Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.

          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          Eugene J 1866 to 1911 Buried St Agnes
          and this:
          Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.

          note that you can see the actual certificates for both of them.

          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          ... he had been a prominent member of the Iron Moulders Union for 10 years in Albany. I have written to Albany but unable to get a search done at the State Library. I could go there in person to look for the records!!
          Or pay a researcher. $$$$!

          Another thought would be to attempt to track down their local church, or see if there are surviving funeral home records. It sounded like you've already been in touch with the local historical & genealogical societies?

          Sorry, but the easy possibilities appear to be done, leaving the tedious ones that may not return much of the investment of time and money.

          Comment


          • #6
            Photofamily,

            Yes, I have the obituary for John J found in a local newspaper. Wow, I did not know about those certs for Eugene and Margaret E. Well, that is another possible lead.

            I had wondered about paying someone to research the Iron Moulders Union Records at Albany. I have found a fair bit online regarding the history of the Union in Albany but of course no names mentioned!

            We have tried to track down the local church where marriage might have taken place without any luck. American cousins seemed to think they would have married near where they lived but no records were found there but I found a church at Troy and I am wondering about contacting them as Troy appears to me to be a big focal point at this time in Albany for immigrants.

            At the risk of sounding ignorant what is a Plat record of the plot? And how do I go about asking for one? We have plot records in the UK so is that similar? When I saw cousins in Albany they took me to the graveyard where they spoke to the people in the office who were able to point them in the direction of the family members they were looking for. We found the plots and I found a few others they did not l know about, including Alfred M and his wife. I have photographs of all the family gravestones found. It may well be that some of these headstones have been put there by later generations as some are rather grand for the early 1900's so in that sense the wording on the headstones may not be totally accurate.

            I have had a look at some of the census I have for others and on closer inspection they must be incorrect census as the facts do not match up ie mother English!!! I will look closely at others that I have. I do have W Wide Ancestry so I can look up other census.


            My Will search in New York State was a baptism of fire!! We went initially to New York State Library Albany but they sent us to another place where we had to go down to the basement and climb ladders ourselves looking for the books of wills!!. We had a main ledger to access for names but then had to do the leg work ourselves! We did find some Wills of Administration for some Martleys with an intriguing note on one of them as it seemed to indicate some litigation but sadly they could not find the information as they told us the place was in rather a mess! So no we did not find a will but it is possible we missed it but I am not going back there to climb up ladders again about 20 feet!!

            You have given me some possible clues and maybe further links to look at especially with regard to the certs you have found on Family Search so it was worth while putting the detail up for fresh eyes to look at, thank you.

            Janet

            PS It is possible that James died young but although there is no sight of him after 1869, at least no visible sight to us as yet, my Great G Father Michael wrote a letter from Ireland about 1875 complaining about sister Margaret who had not written. He felt she was most ungrateful for the help she had received and he hoped that she and James were safe so what that was all about we do not know! Did James return to Ireland and then go back to the States???

            i have relied on American cousins to do the ground work in Albany as a branch still lives there but have not contacted any actual Societies for that area and that is another possible way forward so yes thanks once again. Do you know of any possible ones for that area that I could contact?
            Last edited by Janet; 24-07-12, 10:44.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              I had wondered about paying someone to research the Iron Moulders Union Records at Albany. I have found a fair bit online regarding the history of the Union in Albany but of course no names mentioned!
              Do you have reason to believe there are records there? Does the archive in Albany have a catalog & does it have an entry for the Union? I wonder what organizations succeeded the Iron Moulders Union that might have inherited their records & history. If there is a university in the area, I wonder if there's a professor with a local history interest who could shed light.

              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              We have tried to track down the local church where marriage might have taken place without any luck. American cousins seemed to think they would have married near where they lived but no records were found there but I found a church at Troy and I am wondering about contacting them as Troy appears to me to be a big focal point at this time in Albany for immigrants.
              I'm making the assumption that they were Catholic - have you/they contacted the Catholic diocese and inquired about records?

              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              ... what is a Plat record of the plot? And how do I go about asking for one? We have plot records in the UK so is that similar? When I saw cousins in Albany they took me to the graveyard where they spoke to the people in the office who were able to point them in the direction of the family members they were looking for. We found the plots and I found a few others they did not l know about, including Alfred M and his wife.
              The cemetery office would have known who was where, so I think you've gleaned all you can from the cemetery. Just to explain
              I assume this is the same source of the word:

              I have the plat records for my ancestors buried in Illinois: the plat specifies the land within the cemetery that the family has purchased, and it shows who - and where - was buried in each of the graves within the plot. It shows all burials even those that have no gravestone. Mine also indicate who bought the plot & the removal of a body and where it was moved to.

              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              I have had a look at some of the census I have for others and on closer inspection they must be incorrect census as the facts do not match up ie mother English!!! I will look closely at others that I have. I do have W Wide Ancestry so I can look up other census.
              Not sure what you mean here, but you may want to be aware of the difference between UK & US census methods. In the US, an enumerator would visit each address and interview an occupant for information about the household. The enumerator was not required to ask occupant how to spell a name. Additionally, if there was no occupant at home in the time period that the enumerator was working, the enumerator would interview the neighbor and gather as much info as possible.
              Also important, the US census asks where the usual residence is on the census date, not where the citizen was on a specific date.
              Finally: the enumerators could not visit all the residences in the US on the same day! So usually the enumerator wrote the date of data collection at the top of the form.
              Just like FMP & Ancestry have built their own indexes to census records, Ancestry & FamilySearch have separate indexes to the US census. You may find it useful to search with familysearch if you can't find what you want with Ancestry.


              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              My Will search in New York State was a baptism of fire!! We went initially to New York State Library Albany but they sent us to another place where we had to go down to the basement and climb ladders ourselves looking for the books of wills!!. We had a main ledger to access for names but then had to do the leg work ourselves! We did find some Wills of Administration for some Martleys with an intriguing note on one of them as it seemed to indicate some litigation but sadly they could not find the information as they told us the place was in rather a mess! So no we did not find a will but it is possible we missed it but I am not going back there to climb up ladders again about 20 feet!!
              It sounds like this is entirely covered as well. I would point out, however that if you'd like to review records in a place closer to you, that you can request films that familysearch has to the family history center nearest you. The microfiche you might be interested in:


              Oh, forget that, consider this link: ------- I couldn't read what it downloaded?


              And, if you see one you want to look at, it may be possible to request the film:


              You may want to look at the catalog for other Albany records. Note that it has some Albany Death Records, too


              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              PS It is possible that James died young but although there is no sight of him after 1869, at least no visible sight to us as yet, my Great G Father Michael wrote a letter from Ireland about 1875 complaining about sister Margaret who had not written. He felt she was most ungrateful for the help she had received and he hoped that she and James were safe so what that was all about we do not know! Did James return to Ireland and then go back to the States???
              I've been told it was common for Irish immigrants to return to Ireland. Also, Chicago had a fairly large Irish population, so it's not too surprising to find the two death certs there.

              Originally posted by Janet View Post
              i have relied on American cousins to do the ground work in Albany as a branch still lives there but have not contacted any actual Societies for that area and that is another possible way forward so yes thanks once again. Do you know of any possible ones for that area that I could contact?
              I googled "albany ny historical" and this popped up:

              historical societies generally are more interested in, well, history! and often their answer have a certain tone when they're asked genealogical questions Others are more willing to help. But I would think they might answer questions about a Union, if they know. There may be city, county, regional and state historical and genealogical societies, with information dispersed amongst all of them. It may be just a matter of finding a person who's interested in labor movements, for example.

              You could also try the fulton newspapers for information about the union as well as your family names.

              Happy hunting - I think I'm tapped out for ideas about Albany. If you explore anything in Chicago, let me know
              Sarah

              Comment


              • #8
                Sarah,

                Thank you so much for all this information. I do find American research difficult to get my head around as yes I often do find they are interested in the history rather than the Family History!! I will look at all your suggestions.

                I remembered afterwards that the Iron Moulders Union Records are at the University in Albany and I was referred to their website from the State Library which was where I came up against a brick wall but that was about 5 years ago so maybe worth trying again. John's obituary stated that he had been President of the Union for 10 years which is why I thought there might be some mileage in that one.


                Yes you are right we do have an LDS close at hand which I have made use of in the past so thank you for that one as well. I will peruse the websites you have given me

                Yes they were Catholics. I thought my American cousins had contacted the diocese, but that is another idea to make a fresh contact from England as that might be better.

                Thankyou for the explanations of plat records. I think I will revisit that one because I found a couple of graves unknown to the cousins.

                Re Census and me being wrong about some of them. The names and dates and places of birth seemed correct but the question of where the mother came from on a couple of them is down as England but both parents were from Ireland, not England!! So I think from that information I have incorrect census but I can go over them again.

                I can only say a big thankyou for trying so hard to unravel this mystery. You have given me lots of food for thought. I have already uncovered the 1910 census for the McGraw family with brother Eugene living with them as a single person so that is another lead. I tried the 1920 census and though Margaret is dead by 1914 Thomas did not seem to be living in Chicago with his family so I will have to hunt again!

                Once again thank you for working so hard. I will tell you when I find anything else. Hm Perhaps James went to Illinois!!

                Janet
                Last edited by Janet; 24-07-12, 17:19.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm much better at chicago resources. Check the reference library on FTF, but here are a couple I use:

                  ** page down to find "Illinois Statewide Vital Records Databases" which have Marriage and Death records indexed


                  ** free (once registered) index to cook county BMD records. Note that many of those early records are free on familysearch.

                  and of course familysearch has many chicago records. familysearch has a current indexing project for Chicago Catholic parish records. Dunno when that may finish.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I just looked at Margaret DeGraw's dc - did you notice that John J O'Neil is the informant, and that his address is Chicago?

                    And do you know about findagrave? not many candidates seem to fit, however:
                    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 24-07-12, 21:27.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes I did notice that John J was the informant so that will be Margaret's brother, I have not got around to finding him in a census in Chicago yet but it looks as though a number of the family have moved there and I wonder why. Google searching something else I did find an O'Neill family from Thurles emigrating around 1820's to Chicago and that caught my eye! It is possible that other family members were already there, very interesting. It certainly looks as though there is a lot more coming on to Family Search, more than I had realised. A lot to do thanks to you.

                      Janet

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There are online Chicago directories, tho I'm not sure how late they go. Seems like Newberry library and Chicago Historical Society both had some.

                        don't have a link for the historical society.

                        Chicago also had a lot of metal work factories. If they already had a skill, they may have been attracted.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ah the metal work factories bit is interesting. The Martleys/Markleys had two forges at one time in Thurles and the family were into making iron railings around the 1860's as well as other things! Patrick Martley was in the business with brother James Martley and when Patrick went to Albany he went into the iron trade in Albany and apparently died when a pot of boiling moulten lead fell on him, hence the litigation bit on the will admin. I suppose there could be a newspaper report on this accident somewhere. Perhaps John O'Neil was also into the metal work before he left Ireland as he seems o have gone into the industry as well. More mileage on that one! And the directories could prove very useful.

                          I will revisit this thread once I have done some more digging! It is amazing what comes up when you relook at a brick wall!

                          Janet
                          Last edited by Janet; 25-07-12, 10:47.

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