probably a daft question..but

[Darksecretz]

I'm going to ask it anyway as I don't really know what to think

if a person was Catholic and Irish where geographically in Ireland would they be based, she was born around 1845-47, and on the two census I have found her on she states Ireland as her POB.

I guess what I am looking for really is if there were any predominant areas that were Catholic, (I would dearly love to find her in the 1861 census, but, I just cannot find her, and she marries for the first time in Paddington-London in 1865)

thanks for any ideas..

[Olde Crone Holden]

Southern Ireland - what is now Eire.

There were a few RC families in N. Ireland as well, of course. That's what all the Irish Troubles were about, basically - N. Ireland for the Protestants, Eire for the RCs.

I honestly don't know how you'd narrow it down though! Sorry.

OC

[bubblebelle]

Trying to get my memory charged up, but if I recall correctly when WFYTYA did Graham Nortons life, it was mentioned that there Protestant families were in the minority in S.Ireland. Sorry that doesn't really help does it?

[Darksecretz]

No don't apologise OC or you Mandy, :smilee: any input is greatly recieved, I haven't a clue so is why I am asking..lol.

hmmn thinking about it, could we turn this around and see what a particular surname was prevalent in a certain areas of Ireland??

The name I am thinking of is LARKIN

[Olde Crone Holden]

Is this any use?http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie/surnames.php?surname=LARKIN

OC

[Darksecretz]

ooh thanks OC i'll have a look :smilee:

[bubblebelle]

http://www.larkinclan.eu/eire.htm

Looks a bit like a needle in a haystack job. Scanning through it would appear that 50% of Larkins are from Galway

[kylejustin]

i guess you could get lucky if you have some names that are not common that could come from ireland. that way if you dig around in galway, you would know if you had the right family. are her parents with her at all in england? i presume she didn't state anything detailed in 1911 if she was alive? london in 1861 is hit and miss, some areas are missing, like st george hanover square.

[Darksecretz]

http://www.larkinclan.eu/eire.htm

Looks a bit like a needle in a haystack job. Scanning through it would appear that 50% of Larkins are from Galway

Thanks Mandy, seems she is determined not to be found at the moment really.. :( I have very little information to go on..

i guess you could get lucky if you have some names that are not common that could come from ireland. that way if you dig around in galway, you would know if you had the right family. are her parents with her at all in england? i presume she didn't state anything detailed in 1911 if she was alive? london in 1861 is hit and miss, some areas are missing, like st george hanover square.

Kyle,

from her marriage certs she states [on the first one 1865] her fathers name is JAMES LARKINS (Licensed Victualler) and on the subsequent two [1868 + 1876] that her father is MATTHEW LARKIN (Labourer). I have her on the 1871/1881 census, and she dies in 1890, she names her children Adaline/William/John/Arthur/Theresa.

(on both census she gives Ireland as POB)

[kylejustin]

adeline and theresa do not come across as common names, thought i associate theresa with the irish catholics. do they come from the husband's sides at all? just thinking if you find a parent combo in ireland with one of those names you may be able to dig around more and find out if it's the right family?

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Adeline was a popular name with those of Irish descent.

Have you looked to see if you can find any possible candidates for her father in 1851 & 1861? (Potato famine late 1840's to very early 1850's)


Jay

[Darksecretz]

adeline and theresa do not come across as common names, thought i associate theresa with the irish catholics. do they come from the husband's sides at all? just thinking if you find a parent combo in ireland with one of those names you may be able to dig around more and find out if it's the right family?

No Kyle, definitely not from Williams side of the family, Adaline was born in 1868 in London, as was her brother William 1870, [these were born to the third marriage Theresa b 1876 John was b 1879 and Arthur 1882] I know for a FACT that John & Arthur were baptised in a Catholic church.

Adeline was a popular name with those of Irish descent.

Have you looked to see if you can find any possible candidates for her father in 1851 & 1861? (Potato famine late 1840's to very early 1850's)

Jay

Yes Jay I have looked but never really found anything concrete, I was always under the impression that Matthew was her father, (from the 2 marriages I found, BUT then I found earlier marriage in 1865 in London, BUT with JAMES as her father!) I also ordered this cert and its definitely her, marrying William for the first time, as he was a Soldier presumably that he didnt have permission from his regiment as they re marry in 1869 in London. She then moves from London back to Nottinghamshire as this is where William comes from and after he is pensioned out due to ill health, they are here in the 1871 census. William dies in 1872 and she marries again in 1876.

so am still no nearer really, I did think that the Potato famine had a major part in her coming over here, I have never found William either on the 1861 census, I know he was in the foot guards and have his papers when he enlisted in nov 1860 but I can't find him in the census.

I guess its highly possible that they came over between the census, but I can't tie anything down really, with so little to go on.

[Carol Bird]

Julie,

Have you tried Ireland, Griffiths Valuation on Ancestry?

Carol

[Darksecretz]

Julie,

Have you tried Ireland, Griffiths Valuation on Ancestry?

Carol

I don't know where to begin with them..lol..

[kylejustin]

look for any matthews in ireland and see where they come from?

[Janet]

I do not wish to prick the bubble but unfortunately you will find Catholics all over Ireland and that includes North as well as South, and with only Ireland to go on you can rule nothing out at this stage. However, it is a good idea to look at the name you have and look at websites to see where the name was more predominant and although this MAY help a bit, unfortunately it will not help you very much. I have O'Neill I am looking for in Ireland, and going on the premise of where the name originates I would have gravitated to Northern Ireland and I would have been completely wrong, as my family are from Tipperary back to 1798 and maybe Kilkenny before that!!

I might be inclined to look at the Christian name/first name pattern and see where the name JAMES Larkin comes in the Griffiths Valuation Index and the index is good enough for that. There were Larkins in Cork and Tipperary in that period of time between 1850's and 1860's. Of course it was Michael Larkin who was one of the Manchester Martyrs!!! The Griffiths Valuation Index is free online and you would have to search for your specific names in each county. There is bound to be a James Larkin there somewhere! This was how I worked out where the Martleys may have come from, just by using Griffiths but be prepared for slight changes like Larkin/Larkins.

Strangely enough with Irish History you can learn a lot from the First name pattern so a Michael in the family will undoubtedly have a Father/Grandfather/Great Grandfather and/or Uncles of the same name. Look at the names of siblings they will all be part of that same family name. For example I have Michael, Edward, John, James, all appearing in all generations back to the 1700's. A Dennis or a Bernard would not look right in my family.

I note you have also got a JAMES Larkin so where does he appear in the family, as the pattern of naming is quite specific for Ireland?

First born son named after his father's father
Second born son named after his mother's father
Third born son named after his father
Fourth born son named after his father's oldest brother
Fifth born son named after his father's 2nd oldest brother or his mother's oldest brother
First born daughter named after her mother's mother
Second born daughter named after her father's mother
Third born daughter named after her mother
Fourth born daughter named after her mother's oldest sister
Fifth born daughter named after her mother's 2nd oldest sister or her father's oldest sister


Janet

[Darksecretz]

Janet,

that naming thing is very interesting,

re JAMES,

Ann seems to be a little confused as to what her fathers name was!! on the first marriage it was JAMES and on second MATTHEW and third MATTHEW..

BUT I think that she might have been illegitimate, the first and second marriage for Ann were to the same person, so why give two different names for the father??

First born son named after his father's father that would be WILLIAM then.
First born daughter named after her mother's mother Adaline
Second born daughter named after her father's mother Theresa
Second born son named after his mother's father John
Third born son named after his father Arthur

Ann's first/second husband was William, [Williams parents William/Mary] her second husband was John George [his parents George/Charlotte].

incidently Arthur's children were named thus;

Florence Edith ( Florence, [possibly named after his half sister] and Edith was the name that Adaline was known by!)

Adeline Theresa (Mother and Sister)..

[Janet]

Hm yes you've got it Julie! The Irish are a difficult lot, and in that you also have my sympathy! But if you can crack Irish FH you can crack anything! Sometimes the Irish had a habit of adding their own second names so maybe Matthew was a name that James added to his own name. One other thought that as Michael Larkin was one of the Manchester Martyrs hanged in Manchester in 1867 maybe changing the name at that time MIGHT have been a consideration?

Janet

[bubblebelle]

I know this is a very very long shot but indexing gravestones today I thought of you as I had a couple with inscriptions citing their parentage and the parish/country. they were from. I know it is unlikely but you may just be lucky, especially if you have an idea of where they may be buried.
Obviously they would have to have had a little money to have a grave and gravestone but it's a thought.

[Darksecretz]

Hm yes you've got it Julie! The Irish are a difficult lot, and in that you also have my sympathy! But if you can crack Irish FH you can crack anything! Sometimes the Irish had a habit of adding their own second names so maybe Matthew was a name that James added to his own name. One other thought that as Michael Larkin was one of the Manchester Martyrs hanged in Manchester in 1867 maybe changing the name at that time MIGHT have been a consideration?

Janet

LOL!! Janet, difficult aint in it!! I just need the tiniest of clues to get me going.

I know this is a very very long shot but indexing gravestones today I thought of you as I had a couple with inscriptions citing their parentage and the parish/country. they were from. I know it is unlikely but you may just be lucky, especially if you have an idea of where they may be buried.
Obviously they would have to have had a little money to have a grave and gravestone but it's a thought.

That would be brilliant Mandy, unfortunately she doesn't have a headstone, and in the inquest report at her death it doesn't mention anything about her homeland, I have looked through the information I have and can't see anything remotely likely. [All I do know from the 'family' is that she had fiery red hair and a temper to match!] I DO have a Catholic prayer book that belonged to her, but no clues are in that either!.