Military History early 1840s

[SmallTownGirl]

Hi

From 1851 census onwards I've got a Richard Rose, b. Sheffield abt 1811, and wife Louisa, b. Manchester abt 1817 and their seven children. The first two children

Joshua Wilmot Rose
and
Martha Charlotte Rose

were b. 1841 and 1843 in Poland, or "Poland, Russia" as it says on a couple of census records.

From the third child onwards, all of them were born in Wadsley or Ecclesfield, Yorkshire.

This makes me think that Richard was a soldier. I'm not expecting to find the name of a humble foot-soldier on any lists, but wondered if anyone could point me towards any information as to what the British Army were doing in Poland around the early part of the 1840s. I've had a bit of a Google, but can't really find anything relevant.

Thanks
STG

[Guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...99#1840_-_1849
look at 1848

[Olde Crone Holden]

What was his usual occupation? I have several humble weavers who went off to Poland/and or Prussia about this time, to help set up factories and show the locals how to weave. Then they came home again!

OC

[SmallTownGirl]

Val - I'd seen that Polish stuff in 1848, but as their third [surviving] child was b. Wadsley in 1847, the family was "home" well before that appears to have started.

OC - He was a steel forgeman.

I can't find a marriage between Richard and Louisa either, which is frustrating.

STG

[Janet in Yorkshire]

There was also a third child, John, born in Poland according to 1851 census.

Richard was a forger - perhaps he went to help set up iron works/a foundry in Poland?
Children were usually only born abroad to army wives when it was an overseas posting with accomodation provided and I think this was only areas permanently within British army control - e.g. India, Gibraltar, later S Africa. I can't think of anywhere in the Poland area where the British army would have had a permanent barracks??????

Jay

[SmallTownGirl]

Jay

Oh, sorry. I overlooked John, b. 1845. Ancestry has the place as Sedertom, Poland, but from the image it looks more like Lub... something to me. Can anyone else offer an opinion and/or say what FMP has it as, please. If we could properly identify the place, it might help as to whether Richard was a soldier or a forgeman while he was in Poland.

> children were usualy only born abroad to army wives ...
That's what I thought, but if he did go to set up an iron works/foundry in Poland, would he have taken his young wife with him. That doesn't seem particularly likely either.

STG

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Yes, some people did take wives with them. Gt-gt gdma's twin sister was married to a ship's carpenter - she must have travelled with her husband as their children were born all over the place - Norfolk, Grimsby, Bawtry Yks (canal location) Scotland, Oslo, Norfolk and then Devon.
One of their brothers went off to Russia to help manage a stone quarry. He struck up a friendship in Russia with a Prussian who had taken his mother and sister with him to Russia and my relative eventually married in Russia to the Prussian sister. He brought the Prussian home to England for a winter break - whilst in London the Prussian met and married my rellie's niece and they took her back to Russia with them.
I have quite a few other examples of women marrying and very shortly afterwards the newlyweds set sail for foreign parts (usually much further afield) but the circumstances were the same.

The place looks to me like SUBERTUM - but all I get for that is links to Tuscan wine!
Perhaps LUBERTUM, or something of that ilk??

Jay

[Olde Crone Holden]

Yes, same as Janet - they took their wives with them. Their employer usually paid the fare because it was considered that a married man with a family would be a more settled and motivated worker than a free single man, who might skip off the minute he hit land, thus wasting the employer's investment in time, money and skill.

OC

[Meridian Line]

STG,
Very interesting problem, isn't it strange what our ancestors got up to?
2 suggestions;
Looking at the local newspaper to see if there were any adverts for workers to go to Poland.
Looking for any other children born in Poland/Russia at the same time to see if other workers from the same area went there, then returned to the UK. I doubt Richard Rose would have been the only man to go.

I'm going by experience of welsh steel foundaries sending recruiters to Cumberland and the North East to employ men to work in Wales.

[Meridian Line]

Do you know Louisa's maiden name?
Was it Willmott?

[SmallTownGirl]

> Perhaps LUBERTUM ...

Can't find a Lubertum, but there is a Lubartow, which I think is a distinct possibility. Can find info from Googling about what became of the Jews who lived there, but nothing [yet] about any industries based in the town.

Any ideas where I might also look for a marriage for Richard and Louisa. Their eldest son was Joshua Wilmot and their fourth son was Willmott Christopher (or Christopher W), so am thinking maybe Wilmot/Willmott was Louisa's maiden name.

Nothing leaps out at me, although did find a baptism in 1819 (from memory) on the IGI of a Louisa Willmott in Chorlton-cum-Hardy (d/o John and Alice), and as Louisa had a son called John and daughter called Alice, she could well be the one. Still, doesn't solve the marriage mystery though, does it?

STG

[Olde Crone Holden]

Funnily enough, I did wonder about a Jewish connection, as the surname Rose is often Jewish. Maybe a red herring though.

OC

[Meridian Line]

STG,
yes I found that baptism for Louisa to John & Alice, I think it looks like a definite possibilty.
You would need a birth certificate for one of the children born in the UK to confirm Louisa's maiden name, if you don't have one already.

All the people born in Poland & living in Yorkshire at around the same time, look like they're of Jewish origin...certainly the names are not British.

[SmallTownGirl]

> birth certificate ... if you don't have one already.

Don't have any paperwork. I only "discovered" this part of the family on Thursday.

I've found a likely death for Richard in 1879 and one for Louisa in 1872, both in Wortley district.

STG

[PhotoFamily]

Have you looked thru the British Army births overseas that's on FMP? If you find one, you can order a birth certificate from the GRO

The birth certificate would have father's regiment & rank

[SmallTownGirl]

> Have you looked through ... on FMP?

Don't have FMP, I'm afraid.

STG

[PhotoFamily]

It's been a long time since I looked at army births on fmp, and I don't have a subscription. The index may be free to use.

[Meridian Line]

I wonder if Richard & Louisa married in Poland.
He could have gone there first to get settled, then sent for her.
I don't know how you would find the marriage though, but maybe someone else would know how to look.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

The following 2 quotes are from the site below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Victorian_Era#From_Victoria.27s_accession_to_the_Crimean_War_.281837-1854.29

"Soldiers enlisted either for life, or for a period of twenty-one years, which effectively was a lifelong enlistment. "Limited Service" enlistments of only seven years (longer in the cavalry and artillery), which had been introduced in 1806 to provide a rapid enlargement of the Army during the Napoleonic Wars, were abolished in 1829. Enlistments of ten or twelve years were introduced in 1847"

"Only a small proportion of soldiers were permitted to marry. The soldiers' wives and children shared their barracks, with only blankets slung over a line for privacy.^[ The wives often performed services such as laundry for their husbands' companies or barracks. A particularly cruel feature of the Army's practices was that fewer soldiers' wives were allowed to accompany a unit overseas (one per eight cavalrymen or twelve infantrymen) than were permitted when serving at home. Those wives not chosen by lot to accompany the unit when it embarked were forcibly separated from their husbands, for years or for life"

You can browse the index on FMP without being a subscriber. They do have a useful information section on the army births too - I see nothing to indicate that the army (or their families) were in Eastern Europe around the time of your man.

Jay

[PhotoFamily]

Someone on FTF provided the text from an ancestor's service book. As I recall, it indicated enlisted men could only marry when they had served at least 7 years.