Ann Dudley (Simms) nee Harcourt

[Paul in Poole]

Ann Simms (widow) was of full age when she married for the second time in 1845 to Edward Dudley in the parish church in Sedgley staffs. I am trying to find her first one. Her fathers name was Thomas Harcourt and at the time of the second marriage they were living in Tipton Staffs. I believe that Ann and Mr Simms had a child called John born in 1843 who was born in Tipton according to 1861 census. I am also trying to find his birth.

Help would be appresiated.
Thanks

[Darksecretz]

Hello Paul

I think that the best bet for looking for this would be on www.familysearch.org they are adding new data all the time and have alot of info on there.

do you have her 2nd marriage at all? does it mention any witness names?

If she had a child in 1843 you might be lucky in finding a Ref to get the cert, but, it might be that he wasn't registered and was just baptised instead, again, Familysearch is a good place to start.

Do you know where Ann Harcourt was born at all? this might help trying to locate 1st marriage.

[margaretmarch]

Can you give the link or the reference for the 1861 where you found John please?

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Have you got Thomas Harcourt on the census at all? what is his occupation?

Margaret

[Chrissie Smiff]

I can't help with the first marriage Paul but this looks like the scenario -

I take it this is them in 1861 -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=STSRG9_2050_2054-0806&fn=Edward&ln=Dudley&st=r&ssrc=&pid=20564408

John Dudley Simms married Mary Ann Homer - Sept 1960 - Dudley ref 6c 160.
The most likely birth for John is Jan-March 1844 - John Simms - Dudley ref 18 273.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Was her father a shoemaker Paul? If so, this Thomas Harcourt looks quite promising. I think the wifes name is Nancy, not Ann as transcribed on 1851 census -

1841 -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=STSHO107_982_983-0348&fn=Thos&ln=Harwood&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13794357

1851-

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=STSHO107_2029_2030-0174&fn=Ann&ln=Harcourt&st=r&ssrc=&pid=8746362

[David of Doncaster]

The 1861 Census shows John Simms has middle name Dudley, he may have been birth-registered as Dudley

[Paul in Poole]

Hi there , thanks for the reply. I will try FS I have to get my head round it as its changed slightly. I do have witnesses for her 2nd marriage. I have found a child born in West brom but its the old thing of spending 9.25 and being the wrong child. Ann was born in Tipton so the Census's confirm.

I shall take a look at FS again I never feel that I am using it correctly.

best wishes

Paul

[Paul in Poole]

He was a Cordwainer

[Darksecretz]

do you know what year she was born Paul?

looking at FS I have found a possible. (3rd one down in list)

https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aann~%20%2Bsurname%3Aharcourt~%20%2Bresidence_place%3Aengland~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Athomas

[Darksecretz]

is this your tree on Ancestry?

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/35135348/person/18752137690

[Darksecretz]

From looking at the 1861 Census for the Dudley family, John Dudley Simms is with his parents and his wife/child. now, as he has a double barrelled name Dudley Simms this to me indicates that he was born before the marriage in 1845 and that Edward is his father. (ie the Dudley bit, so as to confirm that Edward was the father before marriage).

I guess that you have the family on all Census? 1841-1911?

[Darksecretz]

can you give us the name of the witness' to Ann/Edwards marriage please.

[Darksecretz]

Just so folks don't get confused the 'other' thread that mentions this is here..

http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/96603-Ann-Dudley-(Simms)-nee-Harcourt

seems that John Dudley Simms could possibly be the son of Edward Dudley and Ann Simms (nee Harcourt)

[maudarby]

Have a look at this marriage.

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=3066358

The brides surname was obviously hard to read but is Ackwood/Arkwood too far removed from Harcourt?
Moggie

[Darksecretz]

Have a look at this marriage.

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=3066358

The brides surname was obviously hard to read but is Ackwood/Arkwood too far removed from Harcourt?
Moggie

that would certainly fit right Moggie.. what a find! though a look at the original PR (or a copy of the scan) would be good to get hands on with it. Maybe Paul could ask someone or email the Archives to see if they could scan it for him.

[maudarby]

Just found the death of a William Simms transcribed as Simes 1843 Qtr 3 at Dudley.
Moggie

[Chrissie Smiff]

I'm getting a bit confused with all these threads about the same people but on the other thread (I think it was) I posted some possible census details asking if her father Thomas Harcourt was a shoemaker but he said no. On the marriage above though that's exactly what he is!

I'm sure I also posted the details on one thread of John Simms probable birth and his marriage as John Dudley Simms. Is there another thread as well (making three in all) ?

Ahhhhh found it now - it's reply 4 on the other thread

[JudithM]

I'm getting a bit confused with all these threads about the same people but on the other thread (I think it was) I posted some possible census details asking if her father Thomas Harcourt was a shoemaker but he said no. On the marriage above though that's exactly what he is!

I'm sure I also posted the details on one thread of John Simms probable birth and his marriage as John Dudley Simms. Is there another thread as well (making three in all) ?

Paul actually said he was a cordwainer which is another word for shoemaker

[Chrissie Smiff]

Oh great Judith, thank you, I hope he sees the two census I posted then on the other thread