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  • Scottish help please

    Never had any myself, but looking for a friend - Robert Rutherford, a cooper/carpenter born c1832 in Ceres, Fife - he turns up in London from the 1861 with wife Agnes born Scotland c1830 and daughter Jane born c1860 in Scotland. In the 1871 his mother in law is with them in London, a Jane Edgar born Scotland in 1811 and a neice, Ellen McMackings born Scotland 1849. There is a Jane Edgar in Durham in 1851 born Scotland with a daughter Agnes but the birth year for Agnes is about 8 years out :(

    I think I may have found Robert briefly in the states as a carpenter. And as a lodger in 1851 and an apprentice carpenter in Scotland. I cant find him for definite in the 1841 as I dont have his parents.

    But can anyone give me pointers please on finding more about Robert and Agnes.

    Many thanks.

  • #2
    I think this might be Agnes and the children in 1881:

    1881 Census
    RUTHERFORD, Agnes
    WEST HAM, Essex
    RG11 piece 1713 folio 37 page 51

    Address: 35, Hemsworth Street, West Ham

    Agnes Rutherford Head Widow 49 Scotalnd
    Jane Rutherford Daughter Single 20 Machinist Scotland
    Robert E Rutherford Son Single 18 Carpenter Battersea Surrey
    John Rutherford Son SIngle 17 Carpenter Middlesex
    Agnes E Rutherford Daughter 14 Islington Middlesex
    Janet E Rutherford Daughter 12 Islington Middlesex
    Elizabeth
    Research Interests:
    England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
    Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

    Comment


    • #3
      This could be his death, it's West Ham:

      Name: RUTHERFORD, Robert
      Registration district: [?] West Ham
      County: Essex
      Year of registration: 1878
      Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
      Age at death:45

      Volume no: 4A
      Page no: 56
      Elizabeth
      Research Interests:
      England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
      Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

      Comment


      • #4
        Probably Agnes' death:

        Name: RUTHERFORD, Agnes
        Registration district: West Ham
        County: Essex
        Year of registration: 1890
        Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
        Age at death:56
        Volume no: 4A
        Page no: 69
        Last edited by Elizabeth Herts; 11-03-12, 19:57.
        Elizabeth
        Research Interests:
        England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
        Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

        Comment


        • #5
          Is this Robert in 1851:

          1851 Census

          Address: Comerce Street, Cupar
          MITCHEL, Andrew Head Married M 38 1813 Labourer Brick Work St Andrews Fife

          MITCHEL, Margret Wife Married F 38 1813 Ceres Fife
          MITCHEL, James Son M 6 1845 Collessie Fife
          MITCHEL, Jean Daughter F 4 1847 Leven Fife
          MITCHEL, John Son M 2 1849 Cupar Fife
          RUTHERFORD, Robert Lodger Married M 19 1832 Joiner Apprentice Ceres Fife

          Interestingly, it states he's married.
          Elizabeth
          Research Interests:
          England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
          Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

          Comment


          • #6
            Heather I have no credits to look on Scotlands People but have found these on the IGI.

            Agnes Gracie, Born 22nd December 1929 and Christened 28th Dec 1829, Old Luce, Wigtown, Scotland.
            Daughter of Jaimson Gracie and Jean Edger. (also born and Christened on those dates was their son Robert Gracie)

            Jane Rutherford, Born 26th May 1860, Old Luce Wigtown, Scotland.
            Daughter of Robert Rutherford and Agnes Gracie.

            Robert Rutherford and Agnes Gracie married on 23rd February 1860, Old Luce Wigtown.

            If I had credits I would look at the marriage between Robert and Agnes to see if Robert was a widower when he married Agnes.
            I know we have a Jean here and not a Jane but we all know that means nothing haha.
            It's easy to assume that if his mother in laws surname is Edgar then it must be his wifes maiden surname but again it means nothing.
            I couldn't find any other Jane's being born to any other Robert and Agnes around that time... Of course, this could mean nothing either hahaha
            I would certainly be starting with these people though even it was just to rule them out.
            With Experience comes Realisation

            Comment


            • #7
              I really should sleep more

              Ok Just looking on Freecen and found this family in Wigtown in 1851

              Address:Church Street.
              Edgar Robert Head Unmarried M 59 Master Mason

              Edgar Jane Sister Unmarried F 47 Housekeeper
              Hasard Jane Niece Unmarried F 25 Seamstress
              Gracie Robert Nephew Unmarried M 20 Journeyman Mason
              Gracie Agnes Niece Unmarried F 20 Seamster
              Micken Helen Gt Niece F 4


              I am thinking that Ellen McMackings and Helen Micken might be the same person..? Could be wrong though :(
              They were in Church Street on the 1841 too only Gracie was Gracey
              Robert Edgar was 14yrs younger??
              Jane Edgar was Jean Edgar (and 17yrs younger??)
              Jane Hasard was Jean Stazart

              Surprise Surprise.. I am still awake and still looking and I have just found Ellen 'Mechan' Christened on 4th July 1847 in Wigtown... Parents are a John Mechan and a JANE HASART
              Last edited by BigShaz McCreadie; 12-03-12, 05:06. Reason: more info
              With Experience comes Realisation

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Elizabeth Herts View Post
                Is this Robert in 1851:

                1851 Census

                Address: Comerce Street, Cupar
                MITCHEL, Andrew Head Married M 38 1813 Labourer Brick Work St Andrews Fife

                MITCHEL, Margret Wife Married F 38 1813 Ceres Fife
                MITCHEL, James Son M 6 1845 Collessie Fife
                MITCHEL, Jean Daughter F 4 1847 Leven Fife
                MITCHEL, John Son M 2 1849 Cupar Fife
                RUTHERFORD, Robert Lodger Married M 19 1832 Joiner Apprentice Ceres Fife

                Interestingly, it states he's married.
                Was this on SP Elizabeth..?
                I also found this household on freecen but the transcription there has Robert as Unmarried
                With Experience comes Realisation

                Comment


                • #9
                  Had some credits left on Scotlandspeople so have got the marriage record for Robert and Agnes in 1860 and it shows Robert as a bachelor.

                  But for Agnes Gracie it shows she is a spinster and her parents as Jamieson Gracie and Agnes Edgar - no marriage indicated for her parents so Agnes Gracie was probably illegitimate but acknowledged by her father!

                  I have the image if you want it.

                  Margaret
                  Last edited by margaretmarch; 12-03-12, 07:29.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BigShaz McCreadie View Post
                    Was this on SP Elizabeth..?
                    I also found this household on freecen but the transcription there has Robert as Unmarried
                    No, Shaz, on FMP. I wondered whether "married" was a mistake as it seemed too early.
                    Unfortunately FMP doesn't have the images.
                    Last edited by Elizabeth Herts; 12-03-12, 08:23.
                    Elizabeth
                    Research Interests:
                    England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
                    Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      scots and irish have no idea about birth dates or ages, so if it appears to be the same people but way out in age, it is probably them lol. i have ancestors getting younger by a decade on some scots census haha

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My 3 x GGM (Scottish) was born in 1823 and at her second marriage, stared everyone in the eye and said she was 13 years younger than she really was. This threw me and I did wonder if I had the right woman. She kept up the lie until her husband died and then went back to the truth. I wonder if he ever wondered why they had no children!

                        No, quite often they didn't know how old they were, didn't care or didn't want anyone knowing the truth.
                        I would never rule out a prospect purely on the strength of a reported age!

                        OC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh arent you all so lovely. Thanks so very much people.

                          I did have him as an apprentice but I didnt notice it said he was married. It seems unlikely he would have married during an apprenticeship which was pretty much not allowed and of course he would have had very little money to support a wife. So I think may be that is a mistake.

                          Oh you are brilliant. I shall copy all that stuff out. Its such a long time since I had to do any solid research I think Im losing the touch/ability or patience required now, which is sad. Thanks so much Elizabeth, Shaz, Margaret, kyle and OC. x Shaz, hope you got some sleep.x


                          Margaret, thats so kind, yes, if you could send the image - Ill pm with my email addy if you dont know it.

                          Muchly grateful people xxx
                          Last edited by Heather Positive Thinker; 12-03-12, 11:37.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            In Scotland a woman keeps her maiden name even when married so don't presume they're illigitimate just because the mother's name is her maiden name. Also helps when searching for deaths too as they are registered under both names on SP.

                            When looking for Scottish OPR's I go to www.scotsorigins.com for births/baptisms & marriages - it's the LDS information and also what you're likely to find on SP but without the images but you can search by county and place to reduce the possibilities before going to SP for the image.



                            Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks J - its odd that Ive never had a scots one in my own tree - though dad always said his Dixons came down from Scotland - Im flummoxed at that line as there are so many in the dockland area and the definite line ends in 1820 with my GGFX2 as there are too many possibles.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by JBee View Post
                                In Scotland a woman keeps her maiden name even when married so don't presume they're illigitimate just because the mother's name is her maiden name. Also helps when searching for deaths too as they are registered under both names on SP.

                                When looking for Scottish OPR's I go to www.scotsorigins.com for births/baptisms & marriages - it's the LDS information and also what you're likely to find on SP but without the images but you can search by county and place to reduce the possibilities before going to SP for the image.
                                I knew that about women keeping their maiden names in usage but have never seen one shown simply in their maiden name on a record like that - still you live and learn

                                Margaret

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Heather,
                                  Have replied to your PM and sent the image.
                                  Margaret

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    One of my Scottish female ancestors (can't remember which) used her maiden surname after she was widowed. She was on the census with one surname, and her children who were still living with her had a different one.
                                    Elizabeth
                                    Research Interests:
                                    England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
                                    Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I find it extremely useful when looking for Scots born before 1855 to look at their death certificate after 1855 as it usually has both the parents names including mother's maiden name. That's how I know that a man born c1799 in Ireland's and married in 1822 in Edinburgh (OPR Territory doesn't help me) - but he died in 1862 and both his parents full names were listed. Unfortunately still don't know where in Ireland but a step further.
                                      Last edited by JBee; 12-03-12, 15:48.



                                      Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Yes, Scottish records are brilliant for information about immediate ancestors of the person concerned - I wish English ones were the same!
                                        Margaret

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