WDYTYA TV Research Mistaken?

[Richard]

During my research I recently came across the following marriage:

Timothy Debouck & Elizabeth Grandshaw 12 Apr 1824 St Matthews', Bethnal Green, Middlesex.

Further research showed this Timothy to be a son of William Debock & Susannah Blumson born 1 Oct 1803 Shoreditch.

This rung a bell for me as I know WDYTYA featured the Debocks as part of the actress Julia Sawalha's programme some time ago now. Was not sure if there was a link, but having the DVD box set I re-watched the episode, and sure enough William Debock & Susannah Blumson were also her ancestors (6 x great grandparents). The program stated William's father was Peter Dubock, with the researcher saying 'we think' he was born in 1723. On that apparent assumption they then traced back a further two generations to Peter 1723's grandfather Daniel Dubock a refugee from Luneray, Normandy.

Here's the spanner in the works. William was indeed the son of a Peter, but there were two candidates knocking about for Peter, the one they went with baptised 1723 to Pierre Debock and Esther Tevelin in the French Church, and one baptised a little later to Isaac Debock and Anne Hearn baptised 1730 St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney (Father a Weaver of Bethnal Green).

An examination of Peter Debock shows he was married four times. First to Ann Lebeau (5 Nov 1751 St Dunstan's Stepney), 3 children Susan 1752, George 1757, Ann 1758. First wife died 1759, he then remarried to Ann Bodwin (16 Jul 1760 Christchurch, Spitalfields), 3 children Peter John 1761, Elizabeth 1763, John 1765. Second wife died 1767, he then remarried Ann Lacken (28 Jun 1768 St George the Mayrtr, Southwark), 1 child Mary 1769. Finally remarried to Mary Battaille (29 Sep 1770 St George the Mayrtr, Southwark) and had a further 7 children William 1773 (Julia Sawalha and Timothy's ancestor), Peter 1774, Mary Ann 1775, James 1777, Peter 1778, Matthew 1781, Peter 1786.

I was at first skeptical whether this was same man, but all children were baptised Bethnal Green, with him noted as a weaver, the last three marriages do all note him as widowed, he signed the register in each instance and to me the signatures appear to match. In addition his first wife's brother Timothy Lebeau witnesses the last two marriages.

Now what first got my mind ticking was Ann Lebeau was born 11 Oct 1731 (baptised as Ann Judith Lebeau) which age wise would match more the 1730 Peter/Pierre Debock then the 1723. Ok not conclusive in itself, but then checking through the French Hospital Records his daughter Ann 1758, was an inmate there from 1833 to her death in 1838. On her petition she describes herself as "fille de Pierre Duboc, & petite fille de Isaac Duboc" i.e daughter of Pierre/Peter, grandaughter of Isaac! This would appear to be confirmation the show traced the wrong man.

I suspect they had an inkling of this, as the program added 'all East End Dubocks, ultimately descend from Daniel' as if to cover themselves...trouble is this isn't true either.

Peter 1730's father Isaac was baptised 1696 in Canterbury Kent, the Huguenot Society's records show he was bought to London by his parents Charles Duboc and Marthe Mallandin in Dec 1703. Charles and Marthe were from Normandy, like Daniel followed in the show, but part of the Lintot Temple congregation 30 miles or so to the south. The Lintot Temple's records show Charles was born in the village of Houquetot 1657 to Abraham Debock and Jeanne Martin. The Luneray Temple records shows Daniel Dubock born Gruchet St Siméon 1668 to Daniel Dubock and Judith Letellier, about 40 miles away. Given that the name is the French equivilant to 'Woods' and not that uncommon, I'm not convinced any link exists between the two.

Now I don't suppose it matters much, Ms Sawalha's ancestors were Huguenots, and were Dubocks, were from Normandy. But I had always assumed with the shows resources the research would be very thorough and am quite surprised they seem to have missed this.

[webwiz]

You seem to have done a thorough piece of research, well done. However I do not share your surprise that the BBC got it wrong. They get lots of things wrong. They are primariliy interested in making an entertaining programme.

[Guest]

Blimey Richard dont want a job researching for me do you ??? how long did all that take you to find ? thats incredible .
I often squirm when thats on as they do make rather stupid assumptions sometimes.

[Jen~Ealogy]

Hmm......I wonder if they told her after, or since the show?

Just out of interest, and as this is your research Richard, I could broach this to the family, as I happen to know Julia's sister Nadia, I won't say how, as they most probably will not wish there names bandied about on an open forum. It is entirely up to you as to whether I should pass this info along. Or as to whether I try and ascertain if they do know.

[Richard]

Thanks for the replies and input. Val I have researched hundreds of the Spitalfields and Bethnal Green weaving families over the years, initially to get a better vew of my grandmother's family who were from this background by attempting to build a wider picture of the community as a whole. It' surprising how self contained they were, and how much they all link up. It has become a bit of an obsession and I have found so many interesting stories behind each family that it has been well worth while doing. Since I have alot of resources to hand it actually didn't take that long to do the Debocks, a few hours an evening for a week collecting all the references in the Huguenot records, and then comparing them to the English parish records. But that said the BBC must surely have had the same.........

Jen, thanks for that offer. I did wonder whether the family might want to know. Then again re-watching the episode it seems like Julia and her mother had a really nice trip over to Luneray, so it might spoil it a bit the knowledge they were at the wrong temple. (In fact unlike Luneray, the original Lintot temple is still there). I wonder whether they are that concerned with the exact details, as we ''family history types' obviously are. It was refreshing to see the trees for the family on Ancestry tended not to go back any further then Peter, so others researching the family were clearly suspect of the BBC's research on him too!

[Christine in Herts]

Impressive, Peter! I own up to not looking as closely as you have done, yourself, at the material you have put together, but it certainly does look thought-through.

As has been said, the BBC seem to have worded their statements fairly carefully, and they are aiming at entertainment more than education with these programmes, now. The earlier series used to have sessions discussing the technicalities with a qualified genealogist, but that element seems to have been ditched after a couple of series. Now there's very little mention of just how tricky it can be to find the records that fall into the laps of the celebrities. Having said all that, I still enjoy watching them.

Christine

[Guest]

Richard my Husbands lot were Huguenots name of Furneaux , I dont do a lot on his Tree not as much as I'd like as mine takes up a lot of my time.

[Richard]

Hi Val, it rings a bell I think I may have had a go at looking into them for you before. The name certainly appears linked to the Huguenot community. There's an Amy Baker, daughter of John and Mary Ann Furneaux, as an inmate of the French Hospital 1900-1908.

[PhotoFamily]

Richard -
I'd love to check a couple of names in your lists and records if you're willing to share? Family legend is that they were Huguenots, but I haven't found their names in the Quarto, and I haven't yet explored Weaver records. Definitely have weavers, however, and Spitalfields has also been mentioned
Thanks
Sarah

[Jen~Ealogy]

Jen, thanks for that offer. I did wonder whether the family might want to know. Then again re-watching the episode it seems like Julia and her mother had a really nice trip over to Luneray, so it might spoil it a bit the knowledge they were at the wrong temple. (In fact unlike Luneray, the original Lintot temple is still there). I wonder whether they are that concerned with the exact details, as we ''family history types' obviously are. It was refreshing to see the trees for the family on Ancestry tended not to go back any further then Peter, so others researching the family were clearly suspect of the BBC's research on him too

Quite Richard, I imagine that with their busy lifestyles, they won't have much time to research. And as you say, unless you're into reseaching yourself, there won't be the same amount of interest.

[Richard]

I had a look into Peter Dubock's wife's family last night Marie Battaille, and in fact her family DO come from the area the Sawalhas visited and used the Huguenot Temple at Luneray, so they were still neverthless treading in the footsteps of their ancestors, if not quite via the path the BBC suggested! Her mother's family, the Faulcons, were also quite interesting, early refugees to London, and several generation of playing card makers, the only Huguenot ones I've ever come across (I would've thought as Calvinists gambling wasn't to be encouraged!). Found a great description of their playing cards online and think they still exist in a museum somewhere. Whether all this information was also found out and handed to the family who knows, not so sure given the Dubock research, but certainly would be more than happy to foward a copy, but will leave it to your judgement Jen.

Sarah if you put the names and details up of your ancestors happy to have a look and see if they are amongst the weaving families I have already researched or if I have any info on them that might be of use to you. I have mostly researched Huguenot families, but some English weaving families too.

[Guest]

where do you access the Huguenots records ? Richard

[Richard]

The Huguenot Society of GB & Ireland sells CD Rom's of the more important collections on their website Val. Once back in France many of the parish records are online and there are several useful regional websites etc.

[Guest]

thanks Richard will keep that in mind when I have a go at Toms for change.

[Jen~Ealogy]

I had a look into Peter Dubock's wife's family last night Marie Battaille, and in fact her family DO come from the area the Sawalhas visited and used the Huguenot Temple at Luneray, so they were still neverthless treading in the footsteps of their ancestors, if not quite via the path the BBC suggested! Her mother's family, the Faulcons, were also quite interesting, early refugees to London, and several generation of playing card makers, the only Huguenot ones I've ever come across (I would've thought as Calvinists gambling wasn't to be encouraged!). Found a great description of their playing cards online and think they still exist in a museum somewhere. Whether all this information was also found out and handed to the family who knows, not so sure given the Dubock research, but certainly would be more than happy to foward a copy, but will leave it to your judgement Jen.

Sarah if you put the names and details up of your ancestors happy to have a look and see if they are amongst the weaving families I have already researched or if I have any info on them that might be of use to you. I have mostly researched Huguenot families, but some English weaving families too.

I would be more than happy to forward any information you have onto Nadia Richard, just let me know and I can pm you my email address.

If it was research related to any of my family lines, I would be over the moon to get it. I'm sure Nadia would be quite interested, she is, in my opinion a delightful person to converse with and very down to earth.

[PhotoFamily]

Hi, Richard -
Starting with the first ancestor that I know was a weaver
Roger de COVERLY, born abt 1732, apprenticed in 1745 - I'll list his wife later
* was of the parish of St Leonard Shoreditch at the time of his marriage,
* resident of King St, Moorfields
* church warden of White Rows Spitalfields Independent Church
* buried 1779 St Leonards
* left a will

s/o Robert COVERLY, abt 1696, St Andrew Holborn
* died 1746, St Leonards
* left a will
---- and his wife Jane GARLACK
* she was also a weaver (one of her sons was apprenticed to her)
* she also left a will

s/o Thomas COVERLY and his wife Mary VARNUM

Of course, that far back, it is difficult to be certain of wives' maiden names.

Roger de Coverly's wife was
Joyce MASON (1730 -1783)
* of the parish St Vodast Testor at the time of her marriage

d/o John MASON (Citizen & Turner) and Joyce LEEDS (1730-1783) - the LEEDS name is in the cuarto, I believe

Joyce LEEDS was d/o
John LEEDS & Mary BURNMAN

The Mason/Leeds ancestry is a definite maybe.

Thanks for your help
Sarah

[Vivienne]

That brings back memories Sarah, when I as at junior school we used to do a country dance called the 'Roger de Coverley', can't remember how it went though.

[PhotoFamily]

Yes, that dance/play really messes up my searches!

It was quite popular just shortly after his death.

[Richard]

Hi Sarah they are not families I have come across so far on my researches, but I will have a look for them through the various books and discs I have and get back to you if I turn anything interesting up

[Christine in Herts]

Yes, that dance/play really messes up my searches!

It was quite popular just shortly after his death.

If you're using Google, you could add: -dance -dancing
to get rid of a lot of unwanted hits.

Christine