Am in a pickle again... with Worlock's and Jones'

[krohn67]

Ive been given some very vague (and possibly not 100% correct) info about my grandad's family. My grandad was Dennis Ronald Jones 24/3/1921, however he was born in India, so have no record and died in Malta so have no record. He had brothers Edward (or Edwin) and Stanley Albert and 2 sisters Mahala & Violet. These ending up living in Dartford Kent. Its showing their mother's maiden name as WORLOCK. I found a Mahala Worlock born Apr 1890 who I thought was the correct one, and a marriage in Gloucester in 1911. (I have been told there is a Gloucester connection somewhere)

The problem I have is, I have been told my great grandfather's name is Edward Henry Jones died 'approx' aged 65 in 1955, which would make him the right aged to have married Mahala Worlock in Gloucester in 1911 and to have gone on to have 3 boys and 2 girls, but... I've also been told he ended up being a Captain or a Major in the army, being awarded a DCM and spending quite a while serving in India, hence my grandad Dennis and a couple of his siblings being born there. I 'think' from research that only officers could take their wives with them to India or Afghan around that time 1914 - 1920 ish sort of time. I was also told my great grandad was in the Hussars? is that based in Gloucester, I am not sure.

I seem to have found a Mahala Worlock that 'appears' to be the mother of my grandad and his siblings, I also have found an 'Edwin' jones who got a DCM and served in India but was born in 1888. The Edward Henry I found was born in 1893. So I'm confused as to which direction to follow, I seem to be going round in circles, Ive searched Mahala (born 1890) and her siblings to see where they ended up, Ive gone further back to her mother who also seems to have been called 'Mahalia'. I was told my great grandad Edward/Edwin died in Dartford, although I can find no record of this either. How will I find out if he was the Edwin who got the DCM but has no connection to Mahala, or the Edward with no army records that possibly did marry Mahala.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Am in a pickle! and was much mistaken thinking Worlock was an unusual name to make up for the Jones bit!

[Darksecretz]

Hello Krohn,

have you tried looking at fibis ?? at all? I think that FMP has some overseas births, I do not use that site, but I know of others that do and have found refs to overseas births on it.

have you had a look in our Reference Library? at the relevant pages?

India

Malta

these pages might give you some useful leads.

[SueNSW]

Not a lot of time today to delve too deeply into this - but Edwin Henry Jones DCM - 7th Hussars (no 586) later an officer with service in India certainly has a Dartford address on the back of his WW1 medal index card on Ancestry - 7 Temple Terrace, Joyce Green

The marriage to Mahala Worlock seems to be consistently transcribed as Edwin (rather than Edward) - and with a death registered in 1955 in Dartford - 3rd qtr vol 5b page 380 of a 67 year old Edwin H Jones - it might unfortunately be time to start investing in some certificates to confirm some of what you have been told (or otherwise )

There also seems to be a substantial gap (1912 - 1923) between the English registrations of Edwin H W and Stanley A D - that suggest a likely absence from the country of both parents - or a father at least!

[kylejustin]

there is a thoms d. jones born 1918 in quetta, india. may not be yours. could not find a birth for your grandfather in the indexes on fmp. it seems to be hit and miss with english babies in the indian continent and actually registering them with the english consulate.

[kylejustin]

if you know the date of death or an approximate year, i'm sure you can apply to the maltese GRO. i have not done it, but a friend of mine is part maltese, and i think some people here have maltese links?

[Chrissie Smiff]

I assume you have the death for Mahala? It is registered under Mahale Jones b c1890 - died Jan-March 1951 aged 61 - Dartford Kent ref 5b 717.

[krohn67]

Hello Krohn,

have you tried looking at fibis ?? at all? I think that FMP has some overseas births, I do not use that site, but I know of others that do and have found refs to overseas births on it.

have you had a look in our Reference Library? at the relevant pages?

India

Malta

these pages might give you some useful leads.

Ah Thank you ... i have come across this site before but didnt think of looking there., Ive had a quick scout but cannot locate my grandad, however, Ive been told there may be a reference to a baptism but not a birth, and when all I know is its northern territories India, its not surprising really. I'll have a proper scour round with less info and see what pops up if anything. thank you

[krohn67]

Not a lot of time today to delve too deeply into this - but Edwin Henry Jones DCM - 7th Hussars (no 586) later an officer with service in India certainly has a Dartford address on the back of his WW1 medal index card on Ancestry - 7 Temple Terrace, Joyce Green

The marriage to Mahala Worlock seems to be consistently transcribed as Edwin (rather than Edward) - and with a death registered in 1955 in Dartford - 3rd qtr vol 5b page 380 of a 67 year old Edwin H Jones - it might unfortunately be time to start investing in some certificates to confirm some of what you have been told (or otherwise )

There also seems to be a substantial gap (1912 - 1923) between the English registrations of Edwin H W and Stanley A D - that suggest a likely absence from the country of both parents - or a father at least!

Thank you for this, most helpful I havent managed to find any reference to Mahala being with 'Edwin' only the one reference with an 'Edward' so thats good news!! inspires me to keep on. I've now found the death too, and 1955 was the year I was told so that seems right too.

The only sibling of my grandad I had managed to find was a marriage of his sister, also a Mahala to a mr curtis in Dartford and the birth, I think, of Violet in Dartford, which must have been after they came back. I hadnt found any referent to Edwin HW or Stanley Albert Douglas so thank you for that, I think I may just have to accept that I'm not going to know what they were up to in India/Afghan between 1912 and 1923 which is a shame as I'm sure it would have been fascinating!

Thank you.

[krohn67]

Thank you one and all for your speedy assistance, would have taken me weeks just to get that far. I think I can get the exact death date for my Grandad in Malta and I think it was around 1989 so shouldnt be too hard to find.

I wish I knew exactly where they were in northern territories India, might help me locate some sort of record of birth, think I may luck out on that one though.

I now have the death for Mahala in Dartford thank you.

I think the next step is for me to get the marriage certificate for Mahala Worlock and Edward/ Edwin in 1911 and see exactly what information was given just to confirm I'm on the right trail!

thank you all very much for your help.

[Darksecretz]

Krohn

have you found them on the 1911 census at all? they marry in 1911, is this before or after the census at all? (I think it was taken Apr 2nd 1911)...

[krohn67]

This is what I found on the marriage of Mahala,I'm sure I found 'Edward Jones' as the person she married too, although I cant find it now, so it looks like it was 'after' the census if that was done around April time?

Mahala Worlock
Date of registration; Jul-Aug-Sep 1911
Registration District; Gloucester

[Chrissie Smiff]

It is JUly-Sept and it's to Edwin H Jones.

[Darksecretz]

ahh so not much of a hope then of locating them together on the census. :(

not sure we can do much more until you get that marriage cert/death cert if you are going to get them both..

not sure that there would be anything on any passenger lists??

[krohn67]

Ive trawled and trawled the passenger lists, gone boggly eyed looking at all the Jones's :p I shall continue. And next step is to get marriage cert and take it from there, thank you again one and all!

[Darksecretz]

No probs.. Krohn

just dont keep us on tenderhooks waiting for the results of the cert.. :smilee:

[SueNSW]

Another quick dip into this - and a bit more circumstantial evidence

The 7th Hussars were already in India at the outbreak of WW1

http://www.1914-1918.net/hussars.htm

When Sjt E H Jones (586) Hussars was gazetted for his DCM in 1916 - his "home" town was shown as Gloucester

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30424/supplements/13004

He appears to have been commissioned in 1917 and seconded to the Indian Signal Service

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32718/pages/4404

By 1920/1921 he was a Lieutenant - attached to the 38th Divisional Signal Company - of the Indian Army

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32353/supplements/4700

The British Library has some Indian Army records and this search lists some relevant to the Signal Service

http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&tab=local&dstmp=1330082399457&srt=rank&ct=search&mode=Basic&dum=true&indx=1&vl%28freeText0%29=%22Indian+signal+service%22&fn=search&vid=IAMS_VU2

It might also be worth contacting the India Office Family History Search - at the British Library to see if they have any info that's not online

http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/

The records of British Army personnel who served after 1921 are not in the public domain - but can be accessed - at a cost and with some limitations through the Veteran's Agency - not sure though what the situation is with Indian Army

Hope this helps a bit - sorry no more time to dig further I'm afraid

[krohn67]

Wow SueNSW thanks for that! Amazing what you can find when you know where to look! This is the 'medal index card' I'm hoping it will help me to work out where he was and when, as my grandad was born in India in march 1921, seems like his father was abroad for quite some years!

[SueNSW]

It's certainly an interesting medal card - if you can get to the National Archives - I think they have the original medal roll books to the India General Service Medals and clasps that the references in blue refer to. These may give more details of his dates of service

As well as some of the suggestions to follow up in my last post, another possibility might be to consider posting some questions about his service on a more specific WW1 or medal forum - never know what some of the enthusiasts have researched

Good Luck with it all