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Catholic Records - Help!!

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  • Catholic Records - Help!!

    Hi

    Im struggling with my Catholic ancestors, sometimes they appear in Catholic records and sometimes they appear in civil records.

    What i have is:

    Patrick Hanley and Mary Ann McGreevey (various spellings of both surnames) married in a civil ceremony (Civil Registration via Ancestry, dont yet have the cert) in Rathdrum, Wicklow.

    All children who passed were buried in Ford Cemetary in Liverpool, which i believe is a Cathlolic cemetary?

    Patrick and Mary Ann were also buried in Ford. No baptism for any children as of yet (might not be transcribed yet?) or of Patrick and Mary Ann in Ireland (as per the 1911 census Patrick was born in Kilmallock in Limerick and Mary Ann in County Down)

    Charles Danslow shows no sign of being a Catholic, baptised in All Souls church Marylebone, marries in St Nicholas Church Liverpool but then buried in Ford Cemetary. his wife Elizabeth dies a few years earlier and there is no sign of her in the Catholic records (I have also searched the images of the records). Their son Charles who died in 1870 is buried in Walton Park Parochial cemetary (as was other children).

    I am completely useless at religion so cant figure out if they are Catholic or not
    Robyne


    Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

  • #2
    Surely regardless of religion they should be found in Civil Registration records as a basic? They should appear in both sets of records if they were Catholic but only Civil if not.

    If one person of a marriage is Catholic it is my understanding that the other usually 'converts' and becomes Catholic and certainly any children are brought up to be Catholic as I believe that is a requirement of the Catholic faith.

    Margaret

    Comment


    • #3
      Ford Cemetery is indeed a Roman Catholic burial ground.

      As Margaret says, in England, they wil appear in Civil Records regardless of their religion - all bmds have to be recorded in civil records.

      There are not many Catholic church records online unfortunately.

      OC

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes Catholic BMD wil appear in all civil records from 1837 onwards unless Births were not registered, which habit many Irish people had until made compulsory with fines and even then many did not comply.

        With regard to a Catholic marrying a non Catholiic, or a "Mixed Marriage" as was the term used at these times, it is not correct to say that the noncatholic partner usully converted. Some did and some didn't and the discretion was up to each person to decide. There was no requirement made by the Catholic Church on the part of the nonCatholic partner to convert. What was paramount in a "mixed marriage" was that the parties had to marry in a Catholic church and the non-Cathoilc partner had to agree to bring up any children within the Catholic faith. However, this did not always work out either. My Great Grandfather was Cof E and married an Irish Catholic girl in an Established Church in Ireland and some of the children were brought up RC and some C of E, not necessarily gender biased either!

        Janet
        Last edited by Janet; 22-02-12, 10:15.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Janet View Post
          Yes Catholic BMD wil appear in all civil records from 1837 onwards unless Births were not registered, which habit many Irish people had until made compulsory with fines and even then many did not comply.

          With regard to a Catholic marrying a non Catholiic, or a "Mixed Marriage" as was the term used at these times, it is not correct to say that the noncatholic partner usully converted. Some did and some didn't and the discretion was up to each person to decide. There was no requirement made by the Catholic Church on the part of the nonCatholic partner to convert. What was paramount in a "mixed marriage" was that the parties had to marry in a Catholic church and the non-Cathoilc partner had to agree to bring up any children within the Catholic faith. However, this did not always work out either. My Great Grandfather was Cof E and married an Irish Catholic girl in an Established Church in Ireland and some of the children were brought up RC and some C of E, not necessarily gender biased either!

          Janet
          Sorry I wasn't clear I do know that the partner does not have to convert - my brother is a case in point as he married a catholic girl but as you say the children were required to be brought up in the catholic faith but as with all religions not everyone is as true to the requirements as they should be and don't follow what they should.

          I suppose the key point in all this is that whether or not someone is catholic they still have to abide by the laws of the land which require BMDs to to registered and that's where the family researcher needs to look as a first step. Failing that then church records can fill any gaps if they are available either online or not.

          Margaret

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post

            I suppose the key point in all this is that whether or not someone is catholic they still have to abide by the laws of the land which require BMDs to to registered and that's where the family researcher needs to look as a first step. Failing that then church records can fill any gaps if they are available either online or not.

            Margaret
            Yes, the requirement was for all to abide by the law and register, but Irish births in Ireland did not have to be registered prior to 1864, and Irish Catholics often did not register births in Ireland as very often the nearest registration office was up to 10 miles and more away across muddy fields and it was the last thing that an Irish mother would think about to register a birth with about 10 children in tow, BUT they always had their child baptised at the local church. When Irish people then emigrated to England they brought their Irish habits of not bothering to register births with them, hence the reason you will find many unregistered births in this country particularly in places like Liverpool. But again if you can't find a registered birth I would suggest you look for a baptism instead, bearing in mind that many Irish people often went back to Ireland to have their children baptised.

            Lensgirl

            You have not mentioned any dates for the marriage details of Patrick Hanley and Mary Anne. How do you know you have the correct Patrick Hanley at Wicklow? If you are positive you have the correct family then I would suggest you obtain correct Marriage Certificate first from Ireland, provided it was after 1864 for an RC marriage or after 1845 for a Protestant marriage and not just rely on the Ancestry entry. If the marriage took place prior to 1845 then you are looking at parish records and Ancestry only have about 25% of Irish Parish records, mainly Protestant.

            Janet
            Last edited by Janet; 22-02-12, 12:36.

            Comment


            • #7
              If the marriage took place prior to 1845 then you are looking at parish records and Ancestry only have about 25% of Irish Parish records, mainly Protestant.


              That's useful to know Janet as I have Irish ancestor from my father who was born in Belfast and have not been able to go back beyond my great grandfather b1854 ish and they were Presbyterian.

              Margaret

              Comment


              • #8
                i agree on the mixed marriage comments .my father who was catholic married my mother who was not,myself and my sister are christened catholic ,my younger two sisters are church of england and none of us followed the catholic religion

                Comment


                • #9
                  Margaret,

                  Sadly, although there are a number of websites now claiming to have Irish records on line, the actual number of Irish records online is still only a very small fraction of the Irish records available in Ireland!! Post 1864 is easy enough through Family Search, but don't fool yourself they are all on there for post 1864. Pre 1864 has always been and still is a nightmare for Irish research. I have only found a few of mine on Family Search post 1864 and none prior to 1864, yet I do have an Irish tree back to 1798!

                  My worry is that people search for a name on somewhere like Ancestry and find just one name like Patrick Hanley in Wicklow and might assume that is their Patrick Hanley, when in reality I know for a fact that the name Patrick Hanley is common enough in Ireland, though I have not come across so many Mc Greevey.

                  Janet

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi All

                    thanks for your responses. I am absolutely certain the marriage is correct due to Mary's surname. Mary's surname is confirmed (although via various spellings) from her first child born in Rathdrum in Wicklow (I have that cert), plus a couple of other childrens births in Lancashire after they moved over (again I have the certs for those too). The marriage is in Rathdrum in 1867, one year prior to the birth of Michael. Although this marriage appears in Ancestry, it does not seem to appear in the Irish Family History website like the birth of Michael does (a couple of Patrick Hanleys in Wicklow, but none with a spouse of Mary)
                    Robyne


                    Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Patrick Hanley and Mary Ann McGreevey (various spellings of both surnames) married in a civil ceremony (Civil Registration via Ancestry, dont yet have the cert) in Rathdrum, Wicklow."

                      Have you been able to see the full marriage certificate on Ancestry? If not then purchasing the full certificate from Ireland might give you some more clues and as the marriage was in 1867 you should have no problem obtaining it and this is what I would do first to see if you can glean further clues. What do you mean by Civil Ceremony? Most Irish either married in a Catholic or a Protestant church and as 80% were Catholic then most married in Catholic churches. If you cannot find birth registrations in this country after much looking then join the club of many others who are frustrated! However, all RC would make sure their children were baptised, but no easy task finding the right church in Liverpoo!! You could try obtaining certificates of those children that you can, plot addresses by this method as well as looking at poll books in case they registered to vote and see what areas of Liverpool they are and approach the churches for the baptisms. What were the occupations of the men? In the brewery trade many lived on the Scottie Road.

                      Janet
                      Last edited by Janet; 22-02-12, 20:24.

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