Master butchers

[dreen22]

Hi.

I am looking for information on WILLIAM TALMAGE BUTLER, born Belfast 1871, I do not know his parents. He married into my line to MARY JANE GAGE, born Curragh, Ireland 1875 (no marriage found). Mary Jane is fairly well documented. The last public record, apart from Mary Jane's Death Certificate, was the 1911 Census. Mary Jane Butler died in 1954 and is buried with her parents in Ladywell Cemetery, Lewisham. Mary Jane was a widow at the time of her death.

However, in the gap between 1911-1954 I cannot find anything on Wm & Mary Jane Butler or their 5 children born between 1900 & 1909. I have searched Passenger Lists etc., but nothing. Therefore, I thought another way might be via William's trade of Master Butcher. I have googled a few questions but cannot find anything.

So, again I turn to FTF in the hope that SKS might be able to help ... Many thanks.

dreen22

[margaretmarch]

Being a Master butcher just means that he employed people so maybe had a shop with an assistant or two - there is no society or listing for that trade I don't think.

Maybe if you could give the name sof the children and where they were born we might be able to find something for you.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

I see on the 1911 census that William was a butcher journeyman which means he was employed by someone so at that point he did not run a business.

I can also see the children so will see what I can find.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

There are 6 trees on ancestry with Mary Jane in them but none seem to have William or the children listed. Have you checked these out ?

I suspect one at least is yours.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Here is William in 1891 and he says he is born in London http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=7928044

He says the same in 1911.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Here are 2 deaths that could be him

William T Butler
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1941
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Reading
Inferred County: Berkshire
Volume: 2c
Page: 785

William T Butler
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1950
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: Folkestone
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 5b
Page: 608

[JudithM]

Being a Master butcher just means that he employed people so maybe had a shop with an assistant or two - there is no society or listing for that trade I don't think.

Maybe if you could give the name sof the children and where they were born we might be able to find something for you.

Margaret

Butchers did indeed serve apprenticeships and could become master butchers belonging to a guild. There are records for the Butchers' Company at London Guildhall.

[margaretmarch]

Here's the marriage

Mary Jane Gage
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1897
Registration district: West Ham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 130

One of the other names on the page is William Talmage Butler. If you purchase that you will see who his father was and maybe get a lead backwards, especially since he seem to have been born in England.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Sorry to say it's not one of the records that have come from the lMA and so the marriage record doesn't seem to be online so you will have to buy the cert from GRO.

Can you say what exactly you are looking for in relation to the children as I can see marriages for Violet Butler and Doris Butler but can't be sure if it is them with a lot of digging.

Margaret

[dreen22]

Master Butchers

Sorry to say it's not one of the records that have come from the lMA and so the marriage record doesn't seem to be online so you will have to buy the cert from GRO.

Can you say what exactly you are looking for in relation to the children as I can see marriages for Violet Butler and Doris Butler but can't be sure if it is them with a lot of digging.

Margaret

Hi Margaret,
Many thanks for all your input.

Actually I do have the marriage, I found that early last year and entered it into my tree too, grey matter getting greyer!. Yes, I found the possible
marriages of Doris and Violet. Violet,s was available complete but it gave father William as Upholsterer. Doris was also possible because Edmonton was
close to Tottenham where they once lived .. in the event I put them in "My Shoebox" for the moment. The two deaths for William will be harder unless
I attempt to buy the Certificates. Perhaps if more can be found on the children it may give a guide to where they were living in later years.

I have not worked on the Butlers for a while but interest was recently re-kindled by the discovery of her 3 brothers in South Africa. All were in the army
and two of them served in The Boer War. Therefore, when I picked up the Butler thread again I searched the Passenger Lists in case she went out
there for a time. One brother was killed in 1899 at The Battle of Colenso so I thought that might have prompted a visit. Then another of them purchased
his discharge and emigrated to Canada with his family but nothing found on Canadian Passenger Lists. The final brother remained in the army in South Africa
and never returned to the UK. It was his descendants who contacted me with all the information, including pictures of Mary Jane but no information on her.

Victor Butler was the Informant on Mary Jane,s Death Certificate in 1954. Both were living in the Fulham area at different addresses.

Do you know whether butchers needed formal training in those days or was it more likely to have been handed down?

dreen22

[margaretmarch]

Butchers did indeed serve apprenticeships and could become master butchers belonging to a guild. There are records for the Butchers' Company at London Guildhall.

Have a look at this and also try ancestry records here http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2052 which cover apprenticeships bought for the City of London.

Margaret

[dreen22]

Master Butchers

Good Morning.
I would like to say "Thank-you" to all who replied to my query and in particular to Margaret M. Thanks to pointing me to the census where
I had not looked, apart from 1911, because Mary Jane lived on army bases with her family until the late 1880's ex UK. Because of the census
I was quickly able to find the baptism of William T Butler, also that of his father. Emma, his mother, is proving a little more difficult in the
absence of a marriage. William & Mary's family, to date I do not have very many leads yet, although I believe one may have gone to Australia,
I am awaiting confirmation of that.

Thank-you.;)

Hi Margaret,
Many thanks for all your input.

Actually I do have the marriage, I found that early last year and entered it into my tree too, grey matter getting greyer!. Yes, I found the possible
marriages of Doris and Violet. Violet,s was available complete but it gave father William as Upholsterer. Doris was also possible because Edmonton was
close to Tottenham where they once lived .. in the event I put them in "My Shoebox" for the moment. The two deaths for William will be harder unless
I attempt to buy the Certificates. Perhaps if more can be found on the children it may give a guide to where they were living in later years.

I have not worked on the Butlers for a while but interest was recently re-kindled by the discovery of her 3 brothers in South Africa. All were in the army
and two of them served in The Boer War. Therefore, when I picked up the Butler thread again I searched the Passenger Lists in case she went out
there for a time. One brother was killed in 1899 at The Battle of Colenso so I thought that might have prompted a visit. Then another of them purchased
his discharge and emigrated to Canada with his family but nothing found on Canadian Passenger Lists. The final brother remained in the army in South Africa
and never returned to the UK. It was his descendants who contacted me with all the information, including pictures of Mary Jane but no information on her.

Victor Butler was the Informant on Mary Jane,s Death Certificate in 1954. Both were living in the Fulham area at different addresses.

Do you know whether butchers needed formal training in those days or was it more likely to have been handed down?

dreen22