SCOTTISH BAPTISM RECORD - James Coull - advice on content needed

[Liz from Lancs]

This bap record is quoted in The History of Antigua Vol 1. I understand from rootschat thread that it was practice to put on the bap record who the child was named after. Can anyone explain the part following that with name mothers?

'Cert of Baptism – June 22, 1748 Patrick Coull, Merchant of Cullen, by his wife, Anne Ogilvie*. Child born the 21st, named James, after James Earl of Findlater**, James Lord Deskford, James Lawton of Cullen, James B Bailli, *** name mothers****Margaret Ogilvie of Airdoch,***** Jane Grey.

Extracted from the record of Births and Baptisings kept at Cullen 21/7/29. Robert.

* Anne was daughter of Earl of Findlater
** Brother of Mrs Coull
*** Cousin
**** Aunt
***** Airdoch, a farm near Cullen.'

Fascinating stuff...also explains where the family myth of a relationship to the Earl of Findlater originated .

Thanks for any insights into this.

[MyAinFolk]

I think the list of names are probably the witnesses to the baptism, who were often relatives. If this comes from the Cullen Old Parish Register (OPR 150) then it should be on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and it may be worth getting a copy of the original which may be clearer.

Kirsty

[Liz from Lancs]

MyAinFolk - thanks for your advice. Will think about that. Wondered why the women were called Mothers... perhaps godmothers? I can't see the Earl of Findlater attending the baptism somehow. Apparently, it was customary to say who the child was named after - is that your experience?

[GallowayLass]

Go to this link for the 'Dictionary of the Scots Language' http://www.dsl.ac.uk/index.html

Type the word "name" without the quotation marks in the search box. Click on definition 6 and you will see a very detailed explanation in sections 3 through 9 but this doesn't make sense for your women. The really interesting bit is nearer the bottom of the page;

(6) *Fif. 1791 Session Papers, Heriot v. Heriot (22 March) 21:
She has frequently seen him there, being often at the house, Miss Heriot being her name-mother.
*Nai. c.1890 Gregor MSS.:
The mother did not give the infant into the father’s arms to be presented for baptism. This was commonly done by the “name-mother” and if she was not present by the midwife.

Fif = Fife and Nai = Nairn

[kylejustin]

i have never heard of the people the child was named after being mentioned at a christening, unless it was royalty of course. queen victoria was named victoria after her mother, but her first given name was alexandrina, after tsar alexander I of russia. i guess, if the coull's had links to the aristocracy, they could have mentioned the namesakes, unless they were godparents instead?

[Liz from Lancs]

This is the rootschat link re bap, interesting another James Coull from Cullen - there were a lot of them there!

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...,546445.0.html

I have added a post on there about this baptism in case there are links.

[Liz from Lancs]

i have never heard of the people the child was named after being mentioned at a christening, unless it was royalty of course. queen victoria was named victoria after her mother, but her first given name was alexandrina, after tsar alexander I of russia. i guess, if the coull's had links to the aristocracy, they could have mentioned the namesakes, unless they were godparents instead?

kyle - we have disproved a direct family link to the Earl of Findlater and aristocracy and I think the family myth could well have started with this bap record when the descendants lived in Antigua. There are other prominent names given as to whom James is named after.

A year before this bap, James's father, Patrick, appeared as a witness at a Court hearing for Earl of Findlater to get compensation for rebels attacking his house. Patrick retrieved some vital records for the Earl from the rebels.

[Liz from Lancs]

Go to this link for the 'Dictionary of the Scots Language' http://www.dsl.ac.uk/index.html

Type the word "name" without the quotation marks in the search box. Click on definition 6 and you will see a very detailed explanation in sections 3 through 9 but this doesn't make sense for your women. The really interesting bit is nearer the bottom of the page;

(6) *Fif. 1791 Session Papers, Heriot v. Heriot (22 March) 21:
She has frequently seen him there, being often at the house, Miss Heriot being her name-mother.
*Nai. c.1890 Gregor MSS.:
The mother did not give the infant into the father’s arms to be presented for baptism. This was commonly done by the “name-mother” and if she was not present by the midwife.

Fif = Fife and Nai = Nairn

Thank you Galloway Lass. Have bookmarked that Scots Dictionary link. Already got a definition of word 'eik' used in a will.

That looks like an correct explanation of the name mothers, doesn't it.

A friend heard a talk recently where a medieval practice after birth was described and could explain the high death rate of infants in that period in England (not sure if happened in Scotland...). As soon as baby born, it was rushed to the church were the minister would meet it (usually taken by the grandmother). He would remove it from all swaddling and clothes, take it naked up the cold church to the font area, swish it (I think 3 times) through cold water to cleanse it of sin. Bring it back cold and wet to the grandmother.

The water was only changed at certain times so would have been full of germs etc...

Anyone else heard of this?

[MyAinFolk]

In my experience it's rare to find the person after whom the child was named specifically stated, although I have occasionally seen it. In some parts of Scotland at some periods you find that all or several of the godparents/witnesses had the same forename as the child.

Kirsty

[Liz from Lancs]

It's interesting isn't it Kirsty . Just been reading Neil Oliver's A History of Scotland - brought the history alive in a really accessible way.