Verger and Wife witnesses at marriage

[Guest]

I have just spent ages trying to find the witnesses on a marriage in the census records to see if they are related in some way and am amazed to find they are a Verger and his Wife.

Is this allowed ?

Harriet Hooper and Hyam Rose

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_199537-00514&fn=Harriett&ln=Hooper&st=r&ssrc=pt_t6737403_p-347722091_kpidz0q3d-347722091z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=7268226

[Chrissie Smiff]

I'm not sure what you mean Val? If they were present at the wedding I'm not sure why it wouldn't be allowed?

[Christine in Herts]

Witnesses are just that: witnesses. They simply sign to say that they have seen the ceremony conducted according the record that they sign. there is no requirement that they have any connection to any of the other parties.

Christine

[Christine in Herts]

Incidentally, people that appear to be unconnected aren't always as remote as you think.

My Gx2-grandmother died in 1849. Gx2-grandfather, Eli CHRISTMAS (1806-1886), married again in 1851; his bride was Marianne Richardson COCHRANE (1812-1880). The licence was witnessed by Richard BICKERTON and Wilhelmeena COCHRANE. There was no known connection to Richard BICKERTON... until I was playing with the line for Charlotte CHRISTMAS (1831-1913), Eli's second child. Then I found a marriage 1849q4 Alton (right area), between Charlotte CHRISTMAS and Richard BICKERTON. So this "unconnected" person turned out to be Eli's son-in-law.

Christine

[Guest]

sorry what I meant was if the Verger is the one that performed the ceremony could he also be a witness?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Vergers don't perform marriages.

OC

[Guest]

oops dont they ? what a clot I am thanks OC

[Chrissie Smiff]

No help I know but you just reminded me that when I was small I always imagined the verger looked after the verges and kept them trimmed

[Guest]

he probably did that too Chrissie

[Christine in Herts]

I discovered fairly recently that "verger" is related to a Latin word which means a stick or staff. A verger often carries a staff of office and is likely to be (for want of a more elegant term) herding the congregation. You'll often find them in cathedrals - sometimes spelled "virger" - and they usually know what's supposed to be going on, and how, and where, and who's supposed to be getting things done or doing them.

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

But the most important thing about a verger is that he is part of the laity, not the clergy and cannot therefore actually perform any sacred acts, such as baptism or marriage.

OC

[Jill on the A272]

Our verger when I was a child was somewhere between a caretaker/handyman and a sorter out of problems but with a staff of office, he also had a pocket full of boiled sweets for good children.

[Sylvia C]

........ and the verger and his wife probably received a small fee for witnessing marriages .. over and above his small salary or stipend.

They would be what is often called "professional witnesses". Most churches had a couple of (usually) men who would be available to witness, for payment


I discovered this when trying to find out more re my gt gt grandfather, who married in 1835. I got a copy of the Parish Register ..... fortunately it was a copy of two pages, a total of 6 ceremonies.

I spent ages fiddling away looking for the connection with the witnesses ......... then noticed that 4 of the 6 marriages were witnessed by the same 2 men! I asked some questions, and was told about "Professional Witnesses".


They were very important, because often friends and family could not get the time off to attend a wedding ...... and only the couple would end up at the church.

In gt gt granddad's case, he and his bride walked from Oldham to Prestwich to get married in the "old" Parish Church ................. even though a new one had been built in Oldham, it took many years for everyone to accept the "new" vs the "old".

[Wor canny Lass]

My gtgrandparents married in secret, and kept the marriage from the family for a year. She wore her wedding ring round her nek on a chain. One of the witnesses had witnessed the previoous marriage, so he was probably hauled in to witness this wedding.

Anne

[Guest]

things you learn on here, thanks all