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Just cannot seem to fill in the gaps ... HELP !

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  • Just cannot seem to fill in the gaps ... HELP !

    James YATES married a Mabel LANGFORD at St Mary and St John's Catholic Church, Wolverhampton Staffordshire on 15 June 1904. Witnesses were Joseph YATES, grooms brother and Alethea SMITH- relationship to either James or Mabel unknown. According to my records this Mabel ( Cotterill) LANGFORD was born Feb 1884 in Tipton, Staffs, the illegimate daughter of Keziah LANGFORD(born 1864. Tipton) This Mabel was my 1st cousin 2 x removed.

    James and Mabel had three children while in England, Bertha Agnes b.1905, Alfred b.1906, Gilbert b.1907. After emigrating to America James and Mabel had at least two more children, Mary b.1910, Francis b.1912.

    Following Mabel's death, (believed to be around 1920), James married Althea SMITH b. 1891 Coseley, Staffordshire ( the daughter of Benjamin SMITH and Keziah LANGFORD ( Aletheas birth certificate confirms this ).
    Some US researchers have James's first wife as Mabel SMITH - I am convinced that this is probably because they associate Benjamin SMITHS wife Keziah as the mother of Mabel, perhaps the additional fact that Alethea SMITH witnessed the marriage of James and Mabel could also lead them to assume that Alethea was Mabels sister ?

    There were two Keziah LANGFORDS ! born two years apart and living within a mile of each other - one was born 1862 in Coseley, Sedgley, Staffordshire, believed to later marry Benjamin SMITH.( also to emigrate to the USA) - the other Keziah, my gg aunt was born 1864 in Tipton, Staffs, the daughter of Samuel LANGFORD and Hannah nee STANFORD. This Keziah LANGFORD married Isaiah JACKSON. Nov.1884.


    I just need to tie up a few loose ends :-

    1] the parentage of Keziah LANGFORD born 1862 in Coseley.

    2] confirmation of the death of Mabel YATES nee Langford (in USA)

    3] confirmation of James YATES 2nd marriage (in USA)

    4] would like to find a link ( if there is one) between the two LANGFORD families.

    5] confirmation of a marriage between Keziah LANGFORD and Benjamin SMITH.

    Nina

  • #2
    BTW, this is also related to another thread:


    James, Mabel & family are living in Clairton, PA in the 1920
    Mabel & kids came in 1908 on the Baltic

    You've seen the tree on Ancestry with the photo of her?

    You're aware that there is no centralized BMD registration system in the US? To get a death certificate, it appears you'll need to request it from this organization:

    If you're very lucky, the cert will have a spot to write parents' names, and the informant gave that information, and gave it accurately.

    The Clairton public library site indicates it has the local newspaper beginning in 1921. Assuming Ancestry's tree is correct, they can't help you. Have you tried posting on Ancestry's message board for Allegheny county, requesting information about locating obits for Clairton?

    Thought about asking the family tree owners what their sources are?

    I'm behind in my own research and haven't had a chance to look for anything for you. January & February don't look much better... sorry.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for the information Photo Family ...

      Yes I have seen all the trees on Ancestry relating to this family and have shared some information with them. However, there is so much confusion over the parentage of the Mabel that married James Yates. According to one tree owner Mabel Yates is the sister of Hannah and Alethea Smith, the daughters of Benjamin Smith and Keziah Langford, but there is no confirmation of this fact ( there are census records for Hannah and Alethea with parents Benjamin and Keziah but a Mabel does not appear on any of them) A copy of James Yates marriage certificate of 1904 states that he married Mabel LANGFORD age 20 - her father not recorded.

      For the time being, I shall stick with the evidence I have :_

      Keziah LANGFORD born Feb 1864 in Tipton, Staffordshire the daughter of Samuel and Hannah LANGFORD gave birth to an illegitimate daughter Mabel Cotterill LANGFORD 1884. (no father entered on Mabel's BC, but suspect he may have been a Cotterill).

      Keziah LANGFORD age 20 married Isaiah JACKSON in Nov 1884. Keziah's sister Jane was a witness (Jane was my great grandmother).

      Mabel Cotterill LANGFORD was born at her grandparents home in Feb 1884, the 1891 census shows her still there as a grand daughter aged 7, her mother Keziah was at this time married to Isaiah JACKSON and living at another address.
      * it was not unusual for children to live separately from their birth parents, my father, who had six sisters, lived with his grandmother Jane (Keziah's sister) until his marriage in 1939.

      Mabel LANGFORD age 20 married James YATES in June 1904 ( no father for Mabel entered on MC) Alethea SMITH b.1891 was a witness.
      ~~~~~~~

      *my questions are -
      1] ...if Mabel was the sister of Alethea and Hannah and the daughter of Benjamin SMITH, why was the name of her father ommitted .

      2] ...why can I not trace a birth certificate, marriage certificate or census records for Mabel SMITH ?

      3] ...who is this Keziah LANGFORD that supposedly married Benjamin SMITH - so far I have been unable to trace a marriage record.
      According to the 1911 census Keziah and Benjamin had been married for 28 years - so 1883 +/- 2 would be a likely timeline.

      4] ...in what capacity did Alethea SMITH sign as witness to Mabel's marriage - were they friends through work ? did Mabel lodge with
      the SMITHS at any time ?

      5] ...is there a connection between the Coseley LANGFORD and Tipton LANGFORD families.

      6] ...the SMITHS - I already have a branch, or two or three or more in my tree, so is there a connection there ?



      Photo Family, I will check out your suggestions and I will ask the several tree owners to share their sources, if they have any.


      In the meantime, if there is anyone on this forum who can give any pointers, I would be most grateful.


      Nina.
      Last edited by Inahaystack; 31-12-11, 03:44.

      Comment


      • #4
        death certificate for Mabel #1 and an obituary would be useful. I doubt she left a will, but you never know. Any idea if they remained Catholic? You could try the local parish to see if they have records:

        Comment


        • #5
          Consolidating postings, is this correct?

          Samuel Langford
          + Hannah (---)
          ____1 Keziah Langford b. Feb 1864 Tipton, Staffordshire
          ____+ (---) (---)
          _________1 Mabel Cotterill Langford b. Feb 1884 Tipton, Staffordshire
          _________+ James Yates m. 15 Jun 1904 St Mary&John's Catholic Church, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
          ______________1 Bertha Agnes Yates b. bef 31 Mar 1905 England
          ______________2 Gilbert Yates b. bef 30 Sep 1907 England
          ______________3 Alfred James Yates b. abt 1906 England
          _____+ Isaiah Jackson m. Nov 1884

          And -

          Benjamin Smith
          + Keziah Langford b. 1862 Coseley, Sedgley, Staffordshire
          ____1 Althea Smith
          ____+ James Yates m. Pennsylvania, USA
          Last edited by PhotoFamily; 31-12-11, 05:26.

          Comment


          • #6
            You have the parish record for the Langford/Jackson wedding? It is indexed on familysearch - in Dudley, Worcester, England

            Comment


            • #7
              FreeBMD has a Ketudah Langford born Dudley, 2nd qtr 1863? Have you checked it out?

              Comment


              • #8
                I apologize, bringing someone up to speed means answering inane, already-answered questions!

                Do you have the cert for birth of Kezia Langford, born Dudley, 4th qtr 1864?

                Comment


                • #9
                  i think both kezia's will be related. i also think it is possible that althea is a half sister of mabel. or at least that's where the americans thoughts lie.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                    You have the parish record for the Langford/Jackson wedding? It is indexed on familysearch - in Dudley, Worcester, England
                    I have the GRO copy of the marriage -

                    Nov 3rd 1884 by Banns at the Parish Church in Dudley Worcestershire.

                    Isaiah Jackson 24 batchelor labourer Dudley David Jackson labourer
                    Keziah Langford 20 spinster Dudley Samuel Langford labourer

                    Copy says both parties signed. Witnesses were John unreadable and Jane Langford - as previously stated Jane Langford(my greatgrandmother) was Keziah's sister .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Photo Family

                      Ketudah Langford was the daughter of James LANGFORD and Ann(Hannah)nee Hill. in 1871 she was living at 21 Bloomfield Road, Coseley, Sedgley.

                      Keziah Langford was the daughter of Samuel LANGFORD and Hannah nee STANFORD. In 1871 she was living at Soaphouse Walk Tipton.


                      NB... Bloomfield Road was in two parishes - Tipton and Sedgley.
                      Last edited by Inahaystack; 31-12-11, 11:08.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                        Consolidating postings, is this correct?

                        Samuel Langford
                        + Hannah (---)
                        ____1 Keziah Langford b. Feb 1864 Tipton, Staffordshire
                        ____+ (---) (---)
                        _________1 Mabel Cotterill Langford b. Feb 1884 Tipton, Staffordshire
                        _________+ James Yates m. 15 Jun 1904 St Mary&John's Catholic Church, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
                        ______________1 Bertha Agnes Yates b. bef 31 Mar 1905 England
                        ______________2 Gilbert Yates b. bef 30 Sep 1907 England
                        ______________3 Alfred James Yates b. abt 1906 England
                        _____+ Isaiah Jackson m. Nov 1884

                        And -

                        Benjamin Smith
                        + Keziah Langford b. 1862 Coseley, Sedgley, Staffordshire
                        ____1 Althea Smith
                        ____+ James Yates m. Pennsylvania, USA

                        Yes, the above is correct.


                        James YATES arrived USA 19 Oct 1907 on the ARABIC

                        Mabel YATES arrived USA 6 Jun 1908 on the BALTIC with children Bertha, Alfred and Gilbert.

                        Benjamin SMITH arrived USA Sept 1911 accompanied by wife Keziah and daughter Hannah
                        Last edited by Inahaystack; 31-12-11, 11:09.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                          i think both kezia's will be related. i also think it is possible that althea is a half sister of mabel. or at least that's where the americans thoughts lie.
                          kylejustin, I have been thinking along those lines too - a record for a marriage of Benjamin SMITH to Keziah LANGFORD would be most useful hopefully her father would be named !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                            i think both kezia's will be related. i also think it is possible that althea is a half sister of mabel. or at least that's where the americans thoughts lie.
                            Sorry, more inane thoughts & questions:
                            Yes - when did Althea arrive in the US? How did she meet up with her future husband? Seems like she must have known him, or known of him, before she arrived, unless she were already in the US prior to Mabel's death.

                            Again, if you can find a local paper, it might be useful to find the wedding announcement for the marriage. Also, small town local papers frequently conveyed community happenings, and might have all kinds of interesting bits about the family. Of course, I'm not sure of the size of Clairton. I have run into small town papers that are online. It would be another question you could pose on a board focused on Allegheny, or to a local historical society.

                            Also, immigration entry papers, and naturalization records. Unfortunately, there probably wouldn't be much for Mabel, but perhaps for Althea. I think prior to 1906, women naturalized with their husbands, but after 1906 they had to complete their own papers. Census records should give you info regarding citizenship status.
                            Last edited by PhotoFamily; 31-12-11, 17:12.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                              Sorry, more inane thoughts & questions:
                              Yes - when did Althea arrive in the US? How did she meet up with her future husband? Seems like she must have known him, or known of him, before she arrived, unless she were already in the US prior to Mabel's death.

                              Again, if you can find a local paper, it might be useful to find the wedding announcement for the marriage. Also, small town local papers frequently conveyed community happenings, and might have all kinds of interesting bits about the family. Of course, I'm not sure of the size of Clairton. I have run into small town papers that are online. It would be another question you could pose on a board focused on Allegheny, or to a local historical society.

                              Also, immigration entry papers, and naturalization records. Unfortunately, there probably wouldn't be much for Mabel, but perhaps for Althea. I think prior to 1906, women naturalized with their husbands, but after 1906 they had to complete their own papers. Census records should give you info regarding citizenship status.


                              Althea was aged 13/14 when she was witness to James' marriage.

                              The Smiths - Benjamin, Keziah and dau. Hannah arrived in USA 1911.

                              Both the YATES and the SMITHS lived in Clairton . Allegheny . PA.

                              James YATES was naturalized 3 January 1913.


                              There has been new information added to one of the American trees regarding Althea Smith. - there is another spouse ! Sadly there is scant info at the moment, the only facts shown are - John Jack WALTON no DOB or place of birth but apparently he died in 1921 place not known.

                              Now this is very interesting because Mabel didn't die until 1920 (as yet unconfirmed.)
                              The first US census for Althea is the 1930 census so she could have married John Jack Walton before she emmigrated.

                              There is still no info on the parentage of Keziah SMITH nee LANGFORD.

                              However, the owner of one of the American trees has added all the documents from my tree relating to Mabel Cotterill Langford and changed James' Mabel from Smith to Langford.... a step in the right direction perhaps, despite the fact that Benjamin is still shown as her father.

                              Talking of fathers ..... there are 3 male Cotterills living on the Bloomfield Road - not a stones throw away from Keziah, Mabels mother, another Cotterill lived on Waterloo Road Tipton (2 stones throw away . lol !)
                              I wonder if this is why Mabel was given the middle name of Cotterill ?
                              Last edited by Inahaystack; 31-12-11, 20:45.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                                Sorry, more inane thoughts & questions:
                                Yes - when did Althea arrive in the US? How did she meet up with her future husband? Seems like she must have known him, or known of him, before she arrived, unless she were already in the US prior to Mabel's death.

                                Again, if you can find a local paper, it might be useful to find the wedding announcement for the marriage. Also, small town local papers frequently conveyed community happenings, and might have all kinds of interesting bits about the family. Of course, I'm not sure of the size of Clairton. I have run into small town papers that are online. It would be another question you could pose on a board focused on Allegheny, or to a local historical society.

                                Also, immigration entry papers, and naturalization records. Unfortunately, there probably wouldn't be much for Mabel, but perhaps for Althea. I think prior to 1906, women naturalized with their husbands, but after 1906 they had to complete their own papers. Census records should give you info regarding citizenship status.


                                Althea was aged 13/14 when she was witness to James' marriage.

                                The Smiths - Benjamin, Keziah and dau. Hannah arrived in USA 1911.

                                Both the YATES and the SMITHS lived in Clairton . Allegheny . PA.

                                James YATES was naturalized 3 January 1913.


                                There has been new information added to one of the American trees regarding Althea Smith. - there is another spouse ! Sadly there is scant info at the moment, the only facts shown are - John Jack WALTON no DOB or place of birth but apparently he died in 1921 place not known.

                                Now this is very interesting because Mabel didn't die until 1920 (as yet unconfirmed.)
                                The first US census for Althea is the 1930 census so she could have married John Jack Walton before she emmigrated.

                                There is still no info on the parentage of Keziah SMITH nee LANGFORD.

                                However, the owner of one of the American trees has added all the documents from my tree relating to Mabel Cotterill Langford and changed James' Mabel from Smith to Langford.... a step in the right direction perhaps, despite the fact that Benjamin is still shown as her father.

                                Talking of fathers ..... there are 3 male Cotterills living on the Bloomfield Road - not a stones throw away from Keziah, Mabels mother, another Cotterill lived on Waterloo Road Tipton (2 stones throw away . lol !)
                                I wonder if this is why Mabel was given the middle name of Cotterill ?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It appears in the 1920 census that Mabel & James naturalized in 1913.
                                  Oh, declaration of intent & naturalization are both on ancestry! Did you find them? It says Mabel was born Cosely. It lists all children, including children born in US, with their DOBs.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Althea and her mother Keziah were living with James Yates in the 1930. They stated they arrived in 1900. Althea reported that she was 21 at the time of her first marriage.

                                    I can find Kezia in the 1920, but not Althea.
                                    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 01-01-12, 00:03.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                                      It appears in the 1920 census that Mabel & James naturalized in 1913.
                                      Oh, declaration of intent & naturalization are both on ancestry! Did you find them? It says Mabel was born Cosely. It lists all children, including children born in US, with their DOBs.

                                      This gets more confusing by the hour ... the only Mabel Langford born 1884 +/- 5 that I can find was born to Keziah Langford. Her birth certificate states that she was born 73 Bloomfield Road, Tipton.

                                      I tend not to put much store by how the places of residence are interpreted, especially in the 1800's. Depending on which side of Bloomfield Road you lived or if you lived at the 'bottom or top end' you could be in either Tipton or Coseley. The same applies to Princes End .... it used to confuse me as a child and it still does !

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                                        Althea and her mother Keziah were living with James Yates in the 1930. They stated they arrived in 1900. Althea reported that she was 21 at the time of her first marriage.

                                        I can find Kezia in the 1920, but not Althea.

                                        According to the Ellis Island Foundation the Manifest for the ADRIATIC that arrived 29 Sep 1911 shows -
                                        SMITH Benjamin 49y. Coseley
                                        SMITH Hesiah 48y. Coseley
                                        SMITH Hannah 14y. Coseley

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