horton look up again please

[Jill Horton]

i am still trying to work out my husbands family tree for his birthday.
i know for sure his parents were born wednesbury west midlands i believe the records are under west bromwich but not sure . the old postal district used to be staffordshire.
his parents were .
benjamin horton born 1905 died 1985 mother miriam wood born 1913 died 1992 both at wednesbury.
grandparents .
benjamin horton born 1890 grandmother margaret lee born 1891 .
i know they came from round wednesbury as benjamin horton born 1890 was living and was buried st james church in wednesbury. i know he was married twice as his 1st wife died but can find no details.
i have searched the internet but cannot find anything. i live in wales and have no way of getting to the midlands.
i would be most grateful of any ideas or help
thank you.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Hi Jill
First of all, can you tell us what certificates you have please. Benjamin Horton appears not to have married Margaret Lee until Jan-March 1911 in West Bromwich. You also say that Benjamin jnr was born in 1905 but the most likely birth in West Bromwich is Oct-Dec 1906 ref 6b 888.
If you haven't got his birth cert you need it to be sure who his mother was.

[Jill Horton]

thank you for this , i have no certificates as my husband would see them i have found the births froom someone who has put up a family tree on mundia run by ancestry. the only dates i am certain of are the death dates for benjamin and miriam and i know benjamins mother was mary lee,i have managed to get those facts correct but they are all
i know benjamin who married mary lee was in ww1 in the staffordshire regiment and that he is buried in st jamses churchyard in wednesbury i believe he died around 1940-1942.

[Chrissie Smiff]

I think you could easily be going wrong here Jill. I am in the middle of housework really but I have come back to have another look and I see that the marriage of Benjamin J Horton to Miriam Wood was in Wednesbury in Oct-Dec 1935 ref 6b 1967. His death in 1985 is also Benjamin Joseph Horton born February 1909.
Don't believe everything you see on someone else's tree, they could easily have made mistakes. Without certificates it is impossible to be sure.

[Chrissie Smiff]

I have checked for a likely birth and for some reason the most likely one from 1909 was re registered in 1929 under mothers maiden name Lee. As the marriage for possible parents was in 1911 I wonder if they waited until his birth mother died before re registering? I've just realised, you said that his grandmothers name was Lee didn't you. This needs a lot of thought, or maybe it's just me losing the plot

[Elaine ..Spain]

benjamin horton born 1905 died 1985
grandparents .
benjamin horton born 1890 grandmother margaret lee born 1891

Jill,
These dates don't look right - if the grandparents were born 1890/1891 it would mean they were only aged 15 and 14 when they had their son Benjamin in 1905.
Can I ask where this information came from - whether it is family information or from what you found on the Mundia tree.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Checking death registrations against the information you have given

The only Staffordshire death for a Benjamin Horton in 1985, Staffordshire is:

Benjamin Joseph Horton
Birth Date: Feb 1909
Date of Registration: Mar 1985
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Walsall
Volume: 34
Page: 451

- which is the one Chrissie has found for you.

- and a death for Miriam
Miriam Horton
Birth Date: 14 Apr 1913
Date of Registration: Feb 1992
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Sandwell
Volume: 33
Page: 1055

[Christine in Herts]

I think you could easily be going wrong here Jill. I am in the middle of housework really but I have come back to have another look and I see that the marriage of Benjamin J Horton to Miriam Wood was in Wednesbury in Oct-Dec 1935 ref 6b 1967. His death in 1985 is also Benjamin Joseph Horton born February 1909.
Don't believe everything you see on someone else's tree, they could easily have made mistakes. Without certificates it is impossible to be sure.

That marriage was at St James, Wednesbury, according to the W Midlands BMD site (http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk).
The same site has a birth for a Benjamin J HORTON in Dudley in 1904.

Have you tried playing with what's available for free on the various 1911 census sites? It's possible to get quite a lot of info by "playing one off against the other".

Christine

[Jill Horton]

yes i have tried every where i can there seems to be nothing about the family .as i have put above this is the correct benjamin and miriam.

[Elaine ..Spain]

I do agree with Chrissie that you need some sort of certificate to sort this out accurately.

The way I am reading it is:

Benjamin Joseph Lee, born 1909 1st qtr.
Registration district: West Bromwich
Volume: 6b
Page: 935

Marriage of Benjamin Horton and Margaret Lee : 1911 1st qtr.
Registration district: West Bromwich
Volume Number: 6b ???
Page Number: 1001

In 1929 (1st quarter) the birth register is amended and Benjamin is reregistered as Benjamin Horton. This shows as an entry in 1929 as well as an amendment on the 1909 page.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Doing a free search of the 1911 census website, there is a Benjamin Lee born 1909 in the same household as a Margaret Horton born 1891 - living in the West Bromwich registration district.

Also in the same household are a Joseph Lee born 1850 and Mary Lee born 1852 (possibly Margaret's parents) and Joseph Lee born 1874 (possibly Margaret's brother).

You really need the full transcript of this census to see what the true relationships are between everyone in the household, and to see what the marital status shows.

[Jill Horton]

thank you a great help.

[Elaine ..Spain]

If the Benjamin Lee birth registration I have given is the correct child, then you would definitely need to get the birth certificate to see if a father is named on the certificate. You cannot presume that his father was Benjamin Horton!

It's possible that there is no father named on the certificate which really means the end of the line as far as research goes unless you can find some evidence of who the actual father was.

[Christine in Herts]

Is there a friend's house, say, to which you could get certs sent so that the surprise doesn't get spoiled?

Christine

[Jill Horton]

no not really we have not lived here long and really know no one that much . what i cannot understand is the benjamin who married miriam wood came from quite a large family yet unable t,o find
brothers and sisters,
there was harry. arthur minnie,leslie,un sure of others but i dont seem to be able to find them.
i have checked the 1901 census and got the following
portway road wednesbury
benjamin 37 born tipton
sarah j 34 b sedgley with children samuel 15 william13,benjamin 11,mary ann9,george7 thomas4 and emma 2

[Christine in Herts]

I was spreading out your info from post #1.

The arithmetic means that the grandparents were extremely young parents?

Christine

[Christine in Herts]

I guess that might explain why they didn't marry until later.

Certainly there seems to be a set of births in W Brom, in the period 1912 - 1932, with mmn = LEE, which include the sibling names you have mentioned.

Christine

[Mary from Italy]

OK, I've found the 1911 census on Ancestry.

Joseph Lee, head, 61, married, coal wheeler
Mary Lee, wife, 59, married 40 years, 9 children (5 still living and 4 dead),
Joseph Lee, son, 37, single, mill hand (crossed out and replaced with "roller's labourer")
Margaret Horton, daughter, 20, married (crossed out: married under 1 year, 1 child born, still living)
George Ayre, brother-in-law (I think; it's hard to read), 62, single, pauper
Benjamin Lee, grandson, 2
William Ford, grandson, 18, single, iron worker (crossed out and replaced with something illegible that looks like "socket heater")

All born Wednesbury except Joseph senior ( born Darlaston).
All living at 66 Portway Road, Wednesbury (although the enumerator's sheet gives the address as 8 Hobbins St., Wednesbury).

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=2352&path=Staffordshire.Wednesbury.ALL.04.166

[Christine in Herts]

OK, I've found the 1911 census on Ancestry.

Joseph Lee, head, 61, married, coal wheeler
Mary Lee, wife, 59, married 40 years, 9 children (5 still living and 4 dead),
Joseph Lee, son, 37, single, mill hand
Margaret Horton, daughter, 20, married (crossed out: married under 1 year, 1 child born, still living)
George Ayre, brother-in-law (I think; it's hard to read), single, pauper
Benjamin Lee, grandson, 2
William Ford, grandson, 18, single (can't read his occupation)

All born Wednesbury except Joseph senior ( born Darlaston).
All living at 66 Portway Road, Wednesbury (although the enumerator's sheet gives the address as 8 Hobbins St., Wednesbury).

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/...ury.ALL.04.166

Having joined up the same dots as you have done (triggered by your posts - and well done, you!) I found them, too, on FMP.

Christine

[Mary from Italy]

Probable marriage of Joseph and Mary:

Marriages Sep 1872
>> AYRE Mary Walsall 6b 881
Eccles John Emery Walsall 6b 881
>> Lee Joseph Walsall 6b 881
Rushton Eliza Ellen Walsall 6b 881