Help with overseas marriage ref please

[HeleninGlos]

I have ordered and received a marriage certificate for Herbert Charles Codd who married Alice Johanna Brien in Madras on 7 Aug 1901. It is as I would expect apart from the Groom's father is recorded as Herbert Charles Codd (the same as the groom) and in other documentation he is referred to as Charles Herbert Codd. It is a handwritten copy not a scan. I ordered it using GRO Index Army Marriages 1881 - 1955 ref Station Madras, Year 1901, P195 which I found using Find my Past.

The same image also lists a marriage for Charles Herbert Codd with exactly the same reference. The find my past marriage match facility suggests that the bride was Alice Johanna Brien for both references.

Please can someone help me to determine why there are 2 references with the differing names? Is it the same marriage?

Many Thanks, Helen

[Elaine ..Spain]

I think it's the same marriage - the references match and there is no one else listed.
There only seems to be the one entry on Family Search as well - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGVD-JPL

[HeleninGlos]

Thank you Elaine

If I ordered the "other " certificate (I know that there's not really any point), would it have the other version of the groom's name? I am trying to get to the bottom of whether he really is Herbert Charles or Charles Herbert. The 2 marriage certificates that I have for him,(he married for a 2nd time in 1904), the birth certificate for one of his sons and his Army Short Service papers record him as Herbert Charles but an IGI bap for another son records him Charles Herbert.

The reason that I really want to try to get to the bottom of it is that I have never been able to find his birth.

[Elaine ..Spain]

If I ordered the "other " certificate would it have the other version of the groom's name?

I don't really know!
I wonder if a phone call to the GRO might help - I have phoned them before about a query on a reference for ordering an overseas certificate and they were surprisingly helpful!

[HeleninGlos]

Thank you Elaine, I will give them a call.

[Elaine ..Spain]

The reason that I really want to try to get to the bottom of it is that I have never been able to find his birth.

Doubt if I can find anything Helen, but happy to have a look.
What information do you have about him -age? - when was he in the army? - did he return to the UK? - name of second wife?

[Darksecretz]

Army Short Service papers record him as Herbert Charles but an IGI bap for another son records him Charles Herbert.

am I missing something here? if he was baptised then there might not BE a b/cert (esp if he was b pre 1875)

ahhh sorry ! I see what you said now, I was reading it wrong! duh!

[Christine in Herts]

If anyone has alternative names/spellings, then they are usually indexed under both.

Christine

[PhotoFamily]

The film that the familysearch index came from is 527463, found in this group:
familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F159329
You can request the film to your local Family History Centre.

[kylejustin]

i wouldn't put much stock in the names being the other way round, they are still his names, and his name either way does not sound like a common one!

[Anne in Carlisle]

I agree with Kyle. Maybe he was known as Charles but also had the name Herbert (or vice versa). The whole family, including himself may just not have bothered too much about which way round the names were "officially". And also .... there isn't really an "official" version of a name because a person can call themselves whatever they like so long as its not for fraudulent purposes.

Anne

[kylejustin]

on official documents my 2nd great grandfather is murdoch alexander, but the family insists it was alexander murdoch. either way, unless it's thomas john smith, it won't effect your research.

[HeleninGlos]

Thank you every one for your input. I will order the film in the new year, what a good idea.

In the meantime, Elaine, this is what I know so far.

I have found a likely family but am not 100%. He is sometimes known as Herbert Charles Codd and sometimes Charles Herbert Codd and the same for his father so v confusing.

The Facts.
Herbert Charles Codd served in the British Army then moved to the Indian Army. He was of English nationality (NB. CWGC record him as Indian but marriage cert and birth cert for son record him as English) and his Grandaughter "believes" him to have been born in the UK to a London family. (No proof)

Date of Birth Apr 1874 (from Army Short Service papers) or 1877 (from marriage certificate). On army papers his name and signature are Herbert Charles Codd. Died 19 Mar 1920 Meerut, India.

Marriage 1 to Alice Johannah Brien on 7 Aug 1901 in St Thomas Mount, Madras, India. IGI suggests she died 18 Jun 1902 Pallavarum, Madras, India. Groom recorded as Herbert Charles Codd but he signed Charles Herbert Codd. Overseas cert so it is a handwritten copy not a scan. Groom's father Herbert Charles Codd, dead.


Marriage 2 to Muriel Wilhelmina Fletcher on 23 Feb 1903 in Bezwada, India. Groom recorded as and signed Herbert Charles Codd. Groom's father Charles Herbert Codd Occupation M.D. deceased. I assumed this to mean doctor but now think it is possible his son invented this to improve his own standing.

Children from 2nd marriage
Charles Raymond Codd b 9 Dec 1903, Bezwada, Madras, India. I think he died 1908, Palamcottah, India (GRO ref overseas deaths on Find my past but cert. not ordered)
Wilhelmina Sophia Lydia Betsy Codd b 12 Jan 1910, Viziangram, India. d 22 Apr 1910 Rajamundry, Madras, India

Charles Victor Codd b 10 May 1911, Viziangram, India. Believed to have remained in India after independence in 1947.

Ada Muriel Codd b 19 May 1916, Madura, India d 2008, Cheltenham UK
Marriage 1 Herbert/Hubert Edward Trutwein 25 Apr 1934 Vepery, Madras, India
Marriage 2 Leonard Bennett. Returned to UK in 1947.

Most likely family, I think, from my own research

1881 England Census Class: RG11/543; Folio: 13; Page: 19 Father Charles Codd b1853 Lincoln, mother Sophia Codd b1855 Southwark, Charles Codd b1877 St Lukes, Middlesex. (Household Beavis family)

London marriages 10 Oct 1875 - marriage of likely parents
Sophia Beavis to Herbert Charles Codd. The signature of the groom is very similar to the signature of "his son" on his army papers.

Would really like to find a bap for Charles Codd b 1877 to see if the name Herbert is used.

I would appreciate any guidance at all.

Many Thanks, Helen

[kylejustin]

there's these:

herbert charles codd b.1883 marylebone, london
charles h. codd b.1866, lincoln
and charles herbert coad b.1879, bedminster, somerset

[kylejustin]

you can rule out the one born in somerset, he is with his wife annie maria and infant daughter in bedminster 1911.

[kylejustin]

the 1881 family are at 36 Smyrks Road, Newington, London in 1891.

[HeleninGlos]

Thanks Kyle Justin

I can't find them after that although there is a likely death for Sophia in Southwark 1892.

[HeleninGlos]

I think we can also rule out Charles H Codd b 1866, Lincoln as his father seems to have been James William Codd and Herbert Charles Codd b 1883, Marylebone is the son of John Codd and Emma. (I think he goes on to marry a Sophia just to confuse matters more).

[Darksecretz]

Name:Charles Codd
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1877
Registration district: Holbron
Inferred County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 78

now Holborn does cover St Luke area, according to Freebmd.

and I notice that on his parents marriage that it states Herbert Charles CODD as the groom, so perhaps he preferred being called Charles? (his father was Thomas CODD btw) I would think that the occupation was a farmer, though it does look like it could be that OR farrier, but as he came from GRANTHAM in Lincolnshire, that is primarily farming land

[HeleninGlos]

Thanks Julie

I will order the birth certificate, I agree that it is the best match that is out there. Even armed with that I am unsure whether it is enough evidence to link this family to Herbert Charles Codd that was with the army in India. What do you think. I have been struggling with this line for years.

Thanks, Helen