Brickwalled on 4xGreat Grandmother, Hampshire.. Help please.

[Richard]

Been brickwalled of 4xgreat gran for some years now.

First sight of her is her marriage, 12 Apr 1830 St James, East Tisted, Hampshire to 4 x great grandfather Henry Budd, where she is down as 'Harriet Wilkes'. Unfortunately their condition is not stated, though I do know it was his second marriage, so possibly could be hers (though he was a good 15 years her senior so maybe not). Both witnesses were his relations.

This is her on the census with Henry:

1841 Census: Church Lane, East Tisted, Hamps

Henry Budd 50, Ag Lab, Hamps
Harriet Budd, 32, Hamps
Henry Budd 10, Hamps
Thomas Budd 9, Hamps
John Budd 8, Hamps
Ellen Budd 5, Hamps
Mary Ann Budd 4, Hamps
Emily Budd 3, Hamps
Sarah Budd, 6 months, Hamps

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1851 Census: Plain Farm, East Tisted, Hamps

Henry Budd 60, head, Farm Labourer, Newton Hamps
Harriet Budd 47,wife, Farringdon Hamps
Thomas Budd 19, son, Farm Labourer, East Tisted Hamps
John Budd 17, son, Farm Labourer, East Tisted Hamps
Emily Budd 12, dau, Scholar, East Tisted Hamps
Sarah Budd 10, dau, Scholar, East Tisted Hamps
Ann Budd 8, dau, Scholar, East Tisted Hamps
Fanny Budd 6, dau, East Tisted Hamps
Rosa Budd 2, dau, East Tisted Hamps

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1861 Census: Old Place Farm, East Tisted, Hamps

Henry Budd 72, head, Agricultural Labourer, Newton Valence Hamps
Harriet Budd 59, wife of Agrricultural Labourer, Farringdon Hamps
John Budd 27, son, unm, Agricultural Labourer, East Tisted Hamps
Rosa Budd 12, dau, Scholar, East Tisted Hamps

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1871 Census: Lyeway, Ropley, Hamps

Henry Simpson, head, mar, 32, Ag Lab, East Tisted, Hamps
Fanny Simpson, wife, mar, 26, East Tisted, Hamps
Harry Simpson, son, 3, Ropley, Hamps
Tom Simpson,son, 2, Ropley, Hamps
Harriet Budd, mother in law, widow, 63, widow of Ag Lab, Farringdon, Hamps
George Ivey, lodger, unmar, 19, Carter, Ropley, Hamps



She then remarried in 1875 to a local farmer:

"Thomas Knight, of full age, Widower, Labourer, Froxfield, son of Thomas Knight, Labourer, married Harriet Budd, of full age, Widow, Froxfield, dau of William Rutter, Labourer, on Nov 13th 1875, by Banns, according to rites and cermonies of the Established Church, by me John V.Docker. Bride and Groom marked x. Witnesses William Knight and Charlotte Smith

Then appears on one more census:

1881 Census: Basing Dean, Froxfield Hamps

Thomas Knight 71, head, Farmer of 42 Acres, Priors Dean Hamps
Harriet Knight 69, wife, Farringdon Hamps
George Underwood 62, servant, Froxfield, Hamps

As you can see the second marriage gives her father as a William Rutter, which would seem to suggest the 1830 marriage where she is down as 'Wilkes' was not her first.

However have checked the parish records for Farringdon, which she is consistant as her place of birth (and the surrounding parishes just in case) 1798-1815, and no sign of a Harriet Wilkes or a Harriet Rutter! Can not find any Rutters at all, though a Thomas Wilkes aged 52 and his widow Hannah Wilkes aged 63 were buried November 1805 and October 1810 respectively in Colemore, Hampshire, the neighbouring parish to East Tisted. Could they be relatives?

Out of ideas and at a loss how to proceed with Harriet, any help much appreciated.

[Olde Crone Holden]

She may have been born illegitimately to Miss Wilkes, but always knew that her father was William Rutter. Not that that helps in your search of course.

She may not have been baptised, or not baptised locally, especially if the birth family were nonconformists.


Can you reconstruct the family of Thomas and Hannah whose burials you have? That might help to eliminate them as her parents, if nothing else.

OC

[Richard]

Hi OC

Thomas and Hannah only have one daughter baptised to them in Colemore, Frances Wilkes in 1789. There's a Joseph Wilkes baptised twelve years before this to a like named couple in Medstead but not sure that is related.

The Rutters never appear in Colemore, East Tisted or Farringdon, but there is a family of them in Bishops Sutton, about 6-7 miles away. This is the only place a William appears around the right time, a William Rutter baptised there May 1790, to Richard and Sarah Rutter.

I did wonder whether perhaps he had an unmarried teenage relationship with Frances Wilkes, and Hannah was the result. That said too much speculation, I have nothing that links either of them to Farringdon where Hannah was born.

Interestingly a Harriet Rutter was baptised around the right time in Bishops Sutton, the only matching Harriet Rutter I could find, 1805, but the parents were given as a Henry and Jane Rutter, and there is a marriage in same parish 1827 to a Benjamin Bounds which probably accounts for her.

I have checked the local non conformist records, but again with no luck.

[Darksecretz]

Surely a birth cert for one of the children would give any other names? that might be a route to go down?

[Richard]

Hello Julie, I have the birth cert for four of her six daughters after 1837 which give the maiden name as Wilkes, same as on her 1830 marriage.

[Darksecretz]

poop that kind of discounts an earlier marriage then doesnt it?

[Richard]

It would seem to, assuming of course she was telling the truth. Another oddity is the Harriet Rutter who marries Benjamin Bounds only seems to have one child, Charles 1829. No trace of them on any census. So she could be the same lady who marries Henry Budd in 1830. But then surely she would have married in surname 'Bounds'. And of course that Harriet was likely the same one baptised in Bishops Sutton, not Farringdon, to a Henry Rutter, not a William. So would seem unlikely to be her.

[Darksecretz]

not sure Richard tbh, not unless you try and make mini trees for the Rutter clusters?? though, maybe, she did marry benjamin and then married Bigamously? do you know if her child Charles lived or died?

[kylejustin]

there is a christening at hawkley, 15 mins away from farringdon, for a harriett wilks on 25 aug 1802, dau of harriett.

[kylejustin]

could not find a harriet rutter birth apart from the one you found already. i could not see any harriet wilkes marriages to a william rutter, either, so i cannot say for sure the one in hawkley is yours.

i guess it could be a mistake that her father was put down as william rutter on the marriage cert.

[kylejustin]

no burials for the harriet born in hawkley, or any that could fit her mother, so i think it is possible she could be the illegitimate daughter of william rutter.

[Richard]

Thanks for the replies Julie and kylejustin, not been back online until today, so apologies for delay. I will have a go at grouping the Rutters together Julie as you suggest and see if that makes things any clearer. That's certainly a very interesting baptism kylejustin, not too far from Farringdon either, I'm seriously thinking that could well be her.

[Richard]

there is a christening at hawkley, 15 mins away from farringdon, for a harriett wilks on 25 aug 1802, dau of harriett.

Kyle just checked that christening on the CDRoms I have of Hampshire Bishops Transcript's and they have it down as "25 Aug 1802 Harriet, daughter of William and Mary Wilkes". Is your information from the original register entry?

[kylejustin]

i have the record from findmypast, so i would think your transcript, if it came from the hampshire baptisms cd, will be more likely to be correct. fmp says the transcript is fromt he hampshire historical society, so i think you need to see the original to see what's going on!

[Richard]

i have the record from findmypast, so i would think your transcript, if it came from the hampshire baptisms cd, will be more likely to be correct. fmp says the transcript is fromt he hampshire historical society, so i think you need to see the original to see what's going on!

I think you're right Kyle, definitely something strange going on there, I need to view the original register for confirmation of just what. Can't see any other children to William and Mary Wilkes in the BT's or a marriage, so perhaps this is still a good candidate.

[Richard]

Ah stumped again...Just been on Hampshire Records office's site and Hawkley Baptism registers are missing 1798-1814! The Bishop's Transcripts seem to be the only surviving record. It is strange the FMP record differs then, I would have though the source of the Hampshire Historical Society must have been the Bishop's Transcripts too ...really confused now.

[ozgirl]

I checked on my copies of the Hampshire Baptism Index and that agrees with the entry on FMP - Harriet daughter of Harriet, 25 aug 1802, from BTs.

I also checked for a marriage for William Wilkes in Hawkley, and the only one was for William to Hannah Wakeford on 11/11/1799 in Hawkley, not Mary. The only other marriages for William Wilkes about that time was William to Eliza Fry in 1804 in Alverstoke. The only marriage for William to Mary was William Wilks to Mary Bone in Privett in 1779.

This seems to be getting more and more confusing!

[Richard]

Thanks Linda, just rechecked my disc and it is definitely down as "25 Aug 1802 Harriet, daughter of William and Mary Wilkes". Mind you these are the copies of the Bishop's Transcripts made by the schoolmaster Hackman which were later published in CDROM. I suppose it is possible Hackman originally copied the entry wrong.

[kylejustin]

nasty the registers are missing though!

[ozgirl]

Checked my CD and it was compiled from transcriptions of the parish records in the Record Offices in 2008, if that helps.