London, England, Freedom of the City Admission Papers, 1681-1925

[Joy Dean]

Re these new records in ancestry - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2052 - I expect it is perfectly straightforward and everyone else reading them will understand it straight away - but people are being referred to in them as fishmongers even though I know that they were of other occupations - ie "citizen and fishmonger", but he was a lighterman according to the census and marriage records, and baptismal records of his children.

Thank you.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Its good isnt it Ive found several joiners and an innkeeper Joy, are you reading the fathers occupation?

[Christine in Herts]

Thanks for alerting us to this.

Still can't find anything on OH's London ancestor! Unhelpfully "Not b in County" (Middx) in 1841, and died before 1851.

Christine

[Joy Dean]

You're welcome.

"Joy, are you reading the fathers occupation?" - yes, but none were fishmongers, from records that I have seen.

[margaretmarch]

Re these new records in ancestry - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2052 - I expect it is perfectly straightforward and everyone else reading them will understand it straight away - but people are being referred to in them as fishmongers even though I know that they were of other occupations - ie "citizen and fishmonger", but he was a lighterman according to the census and marriage records, and baptismal records of his children.

Thank you.

The only explanation then is that it is not the right person.

Margaret

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Joy, you are right! Ive just found one of mine, Charles Acton, father Robert Acton. 1742. The guff says he was apprenticed as a waterman for 7 years, ("one of 6 young men in this mayoralty" (correct) and it gives right dad but then it says something like "by redemption of the Company of Glovers" - doesnt make sense does it? There must be some reason for this. I am sure the Watermen/Lightermen had their own guild then, so why would another company be involved???

Margaret, its defo my chap in this one.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2052&iid=32512_a063410-00582&fn=Charles&ln=Acton&st=r&ssrc=&pid=882558

[Joy Dean]

It is a puzzle, Heather - to keep us on our toes

[Heather Positive Thinker]

It seems more than coincidence that yours and mine are same occupation Joy. Im wondering whether the Watermen/Lightermen guild had to have another guild propose them? I shall do a bit of investigating and get back to you. But I reckon this may be the answer:

The Act of 1827 was very important, as, for the first time, the Company of Watermen became completely independent and a corporate body with its’ own seal.

It may well be that before that date another company had to sponsor the applicant? (I noticed a fair bit of dosh exchanged hands for the redemption).

I think we have found the answer but Ive also emailed Dockland Ancestors for their take on this.

[Jill on the A272]

Just wondering why a surgeon and leather factor should be a member of the Spectaclemakers, (this is in 1891). How odd.

[Koromo]

The most helpful information on the London apprenticeships that I've found is on British Origins. It states:

"Did masters always follow the trade indicated by company name?
This was the case until about the mid-seventeenth century, after which it became increasingly common (in some companies virtually universal) for members of a given livery company to practice another trade altogether."

http://www.origins.net/help/aboutbo-lonapps.aspx

(Also learned that these records were stored by being strung together through a hole in the middle.)

Cheers
Koromo

[Joy Dean]

All most intriguing.

Just one example in my family - George John Brooks, father Robert Gifford Brooks: date of admission given as 1858 but I have corrected that to 1850 which is the year on the document.
From having seen an apprenticeship record at the Guildhall, I knew that George had been apprenticed to his father: "Robert Gifford Brooks bound his Apprentice George John Brooks for 7 years beginning 9th January 1851."
Also I know about George from his marriage and death records, and census, that he was a lighterman, and later a policeman. His father Robert, from census and his death certificate, was a lighterman and, according to his children's baptismal records, from 1827 to 1834, he was a yeoman, a farmer, a gentleman, and a cow keeper; yet from this record in ancestry http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...rc=&pid=728624 unless I have misread it, Robert is referred to as a citizen and fishmonger. Interestingly, the Drapers Company is mentioned in the document.

[margaretmarch]

Well what an odd set of circumstances - all very confusing and I stand corrected on my comment about you perhaps having the wrong person

[Joy Dean]

Very confusing indeed :-)
However, I am still happy to have seen the records because I now know that my great-great-great-great-Grandad Robert Brooks was a coal merchant - this can be seen in the record for his son Robert Gifford Brooks (brother to my direct ancestor)

[PhotoFamily]

Of course, there are still company records for most of the guilds.

[Jill on the A272]

Joy, did you look at the reverse of the document? It has 1858 as the date of admission (he'd completed his 7 yr apprenticeship), the front page is his apprenticeship indenture (1850).

[Joy Dean]

Joy, did you look at the reverse of the document? It has 1858 as the date of admission (he'd completed his 7 yr apprenticeship), the front page is his apprenticeship indenture (1850).

Thank you - I had not done that
I have removed my comment from the record and shall have to check the others that I found, too.

[Liz from Lancs]

Would this resource be of use to us on the Eleanor Coull thread? With Moggie's help, have found a Thomas Coull who was made a Citizen of London.

Thomas Coull, M.D. (Physician) who spent part of his life in Antigua and some in London born about 1775. Still alive in 1841 as in London then.

Is this the right place to ask if someone could check on Ancestry Freedom of City papers for him?

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Well, surprisingly, Dockland Ancestors couldnt help. I then contacted the Watermans Hall and again, surprisingly the lady who is the archivist apparently said she couldnt throw any light on this, may be we had the wrong man. Well, I know it is the right man, fits exactly.

Cousin went to London libraries to have a further search and Ive just had a mail from him saying my guess was apparently right

My Ancestors were Freemen of the City of London. By Vivienne E. Aldous.

Page 22.

In order to become a freeman of the City before 1835, a person had first to become a freeman of a city livery company. However, because the Waterman, and lighterman,s company was not a full livery company, not having received a formal grant of livery, people had to become free of the city through another company, and so they appear in the alphabets of city freedom admissions as being admitted through a company other than the Watermen and Lightermen.

Rather shocked the watermans hall lady didnt know this. I even put my theory to her! Anyway, that does explain it to us with watermen and lightermen

[Liz from Lancs]

Heather - thanks for that info.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Thanks for that Heather - solves a couple of my queries as well!