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buddahbelly
13-10-11, 20:55
Can anyone help? I'm trying to find the register of the birth of my 2x Great Grandmother. I have looked at the freeBMD'S and have even ordered the birth certificate on the strength of my findings, but it turns out I have the wrong person as the father's name is wrong (there is no mother's name available). I understand that the date of birth and the date of registering can be different. Does anyone know how long this difference can be as I've decided to look at other registers surrounding her date of birth of 1878? Thanks.

Mike

Elaine ..Spain
13-10-11, 20:59
Welcome to Family Tree Forum.

I think I am correct in saying that the registration needed to be done within 42 days of the birth, so you often find registrations in the quarter following the one you would expect.

Do you want to give us a name and whatever information you have got to see if we can help?

Darksecretz
13-10-11, 20:59
Hello Buddahbelly,

welcome to the forum, lets begin at the end so to speak. what is the name and place of birth of your x2 grandmother please :smilee:

Christine in Herts
13-10-11, 23:04
Welcome to FTF, Mike.


her date of birth of 1878
Is that based on a census, or a BMD record or something like that? In case you hadn't already spotted it, censuses and the like tend to suggest a latest year - if the DoB works out arithmetically as 1878, for example, that means that the actual DoB is more likely to be in 1877.

And people didn't always give accurate information about their ages, for all sorts of reasons. I wasted a lot of time looking for my G-grandmother's birth cert not realising that she had chopped 7 years off her age, in order not to appear too much older than her rather young husband when they married!

Christine

kylejustin
14-10-11, 10:23
im assuming this is england? and that you have a marriage cert with her father's name on it? and census entries after marriage? have you found her in the census before marriage?

Olde Crone Holden
14-10-11, 10:28
I'm puzzled - I've never seen an English birth certificate which doesn't have a mother's name on it.

OC

Chrissie Smiff
14-10-11, 10:52
I'm puzzled - I've never seen an English birth certificate which doesn't have a mother's name on it.

OC

Perhaps Mike means that he has her marriage certificate OC with fathers name on, but hasn't been able to find them on a census yet to ascertain the mothers name?

kylejustin
14-10-11, 11:00
that was how i understood it chrissie.

Olde Crone Holden
14-10-11, 18:20
Oh right - how did you know that?! I can only see mention of a wrong birth certificate.

OC

margaretmarch
14-10-11, 20:10
I have looked at the freeBMD'S and have even ordered the birth certificate on the strength of my findings, but it turns out I have the wrong person as the father's name is wrong (there is no mother's name available).

That's the bit which might be misleading from the first post - seems the father's name is known but not the mother's. Must be from a marriage cert.
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff
15-10-11, 09:51
Oh right - how did you know that?! I can only see mention of a wrong birth certificate.

OC

Sorry OC, I didn't, I was just guessing.

margaretmarch
15-10-11, 13:37
Sorry OC, I didn't, I was just guessing.

It's the way the first post is worded and I think you are right - he probably has a marriage cert with father's name but can't find right birth or other record to get mother's name. I don't think he has a birth cert other than one bought speculatively which he knows is wrong because father's name is wrong.
Margaret

buddahbelly
15-10-11, 19:24
Thanks everyone for your interest and your help. I'm sorry I've been so vague, this is my first time attempting anything like this. I'm still pretty new with everything. First of all I seem to have made a mistake, it is not my 2x Great Grandmother I'm looking for, but my Great Grandmother. Her name was Sarah Jane Williams and she was born in either the parish of Llandanwg in Merionethshire in Wales, or, the parish of Llanenddwyn, Merionethshire, Wales in 1878. I know of her date of birth through, as some of you have figured out, her marriage certificate and I also have her death certificate. I have tried asking my family, but no one seems to know anything about her. On her marriage certificate she is registered as a widow and her name is Owens. She married my Great Grandfather, Ellis Lloyd in 1908. I've tried searching for her on Ancestry under Williams and Owens, as yet they don't have the 1911 census, and I still draw a blank. I have found a Sarah Jane Williams living in Harlech, Merionethshire, Wales, but once again the father's name (Griffith Williams) is wrong. Once again thanks everyone I really appreciate this. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places, time will tell.

Mike

Olde Crone Holden
15-10-11, 19:53
Mike

Can you give the reference for the 1908 marriage please as I can't seem to find it.

OC

Elaine ..Spain
15-10-11, 20:11
I think it is this one OC

Marriages Jun 1908 (free BMD)
LLWYD Ellis
Owens Sarah Jane
Dolgelly 11b 658

Elaine ..Spain
15-10-11, 20:25
Her name was Sarah Jane Williams and she was born in either the parish of Llandanwg in Merionethshire in Wales, or, the parish of Llanenddwyn, Merionethshire, Wales in 1878.

Have you found her in any census? If not, how do you know where she was born.
On her marriage certificate what is the name and occupation of her father.

Elaine ..Spain
15-10-11, 20:38
No idea if this is any help to us
Marriages Sep 1897
Jones Edward
Owens Owen
PUGH Anne
Williams Sarah Jane
Dolgelly 11b 571

Could Dolgelly be the right area - my knowledge of Welsh geography is non existent!

JudithM
15-10-11, 20:39
Is this her in 1911?
Festiniog registration district Address: New Street Penmorfa
Ellis LLOYD 43 born Meirionydd Cwm Naucol
Sarah Lloyd 32 born Meirionydd Llanfrothen
Elizabeth Lloyd 1 born Carnarvon Penmorfa
Dorothy Lloyd ?months born Carnarvon Penmorfa

Elaine ..Spain
15-10-11, 20:53
Is this her in 1911?
Festiniog registration district Address: New Street Penmorfa
Ellis LLOYD 43 born Meirionydd Cwm Naucol
Sarah Lloyd 32 born Meirionydd Llanfrother
Elizabeth Lloyd 1 born Carnarvon Penmorfa
Dorothy Lloyd ?months born Carnarvon Penmorfa

The matching image for this on Ancestry
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/View.aspx?dbid=2353&path=Merionethshire.Dolbenmaen.ALL.04.178

Elaine ..Spain
15-10-11, 20:57
Could this be Sarah in 1891?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti=5538&indiv=try&db=uki1891wales&h=242502
RG12; Piece: 4647; Folio 51; Page 7

Sarah's father appears to be Griffiths Williams.
Mike mentioned this name in post #13 but I am not sure if he meant it's the correct name for Sarah's father or not!

JudithM
15-10-11, 21:19
In 1881 I found one Sarah Williams born Llanfrothen but aged 7. RG11 piece 5552 folio 16 page 25 Could be she lied about her age to Ellis when she married him?
This Sarah was daughter of Owen Williams, aged 52, slate quarryman and Dorothy aged 46. Interesting bearing in mind name of Sarah and Ellis' younger daughter in 1911.

Chrissie Smiff
15-10-11, 22:29
Llanfrothen comes under Festiniog.
Possible births - all Sarah Jane Williams - all under Festiniog are -
This one looks like the one Judith found - April-June 1874 - ref 11b 480
In the birth period we are looking for there is the one that I assume Mike sent for Oct-Dec 1878 - 11b 389. Strangely this has been registered twice though. Could this mean two Sarah Jane Williams registered at the same time?

The next ones after that are 1883 - so too late.

buddahbelly
16-10-11, 20:01
Once again thanks everyone. Yes Chrissie the Oct-Dec 1878 register was the one I had ordered and it is registered twice, both fathers being wrong. I had the father's name of Griffith Williams off the marriage certificate, his occupation is given as farmer. But there is light at the end of the tunnel as the 1911 census is the right one as Elizabeth Lloyd (aged 1) was my grandmother she was born in 1901, so the place of birth I was given for Sarah was wrong. I can now go back to my search. I have noted all of your suggestions and I will look into them all. Once again this has been so much help and greatly appreciated, thank you.

Mike

Chrissie Smiff
17-10-11, 12:40
I am working on a theory and would love other opinions please. Have I completely lost the plot or is this feasable?

Elaine's post no 20 in 1891 looks very likely to me. Right fathers name and occupation etc. However, Griffith Williams would only have been about 16 when Sarah Jane was born. You will notice that Dorothy's mothers name is Jane Roberts.
So I started to wonder whether Sarah's mother Dorothy had been married before. I found this Dorothy Davies in 1881 with husband Robert and daughter Sarah (2) - You will notice that the house above is the house that our likely Sarah Williams is living in in 1891. Living in that house is Morris Roberts a farmer - married but wife apparently not at home (probably Jane away visiting?).

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8059&iid=MERRG11_5550_5554-0567&fn=Dorothy&ln=Davies&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13000063

There is a possible marriage of a Robert Davies and a Dorothy Roberts in July-Sept 1878 - Festiniog 11b 499 and a possible matching birth for a Sarah Jane Davies Oct-Dec 1878 - 11b 403 (shotgun wedding perhaps?)
Two possible deaths for Morris Roberts in Festiniog before 1891 - there is one in March 1980 aged 65 and one in June 1889 aged 66.

Did Robert die, or perhaps not treat her well, as I haven't found the Griffiths Williams marriage yet and looking for a Robert Davies death will take time. If Sarah never knew her father she would have been very likely to use her stepfathers details on her marriage. Opinions please?

Chrissie Smiff
17-10-11, 12:56
BINGO - 1901 census - Daughter Ann/Annie and son Richard now listed as Davies - So it looks as though William was the first born as Williams.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7815&iid=MERRG13_5256_5257-0309&fn=Dorothy&ln=Williams&st=r&ssrc=&pid=33181627

margaretmarch
17-10-11, 13:01
I am working on a theory and would love other opinions please. Have I completely lost the plot or is this feasable?

Elaine's post no 20 in 1891 looks very likely to me. Right fathers name and occupation etc. However, Griffith Williams would only have been about 16 when Sarah Jane was born. You will notice that Dorothy's mothers name is Jane Roberts.
So I started to wonder whether Sarah's mother Dorothy had been married before. I found this Dorothy Davies in 1881 with husband Robert and daughter Sarah (2) - You will notice that the house above is the house that our likely Sarah Williams is living in in 1891. Living in that house is Morris Roberts a farmer - married but wife apparently not at home (probably Jane away visiting?).

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8059&iid=MERRG11_5550_5554-0567&fn=Dorothy&ln=Davies&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13000063

There is a possible marriage of a Robert Davies and a Dorothy Roberts in July-Sept 1878 - Festiniog 11b 499 and a possible matching birth for a Sarah Jane Davies Oct-Dec 1878 - 11b 403 (shotgun wedding perhaps?)
Two possible deaths for Morris Roberts in Festiniog before 1891 - there is one in March 1980 aged 65 and one in June 1889 aged 66.

Did Robert die, or perhaps not treat her well, as I haven't found the Griffiths Williams marriage yet and looking for a Robert Davies death will take time. If Sarah never knew her father she would have been very likely to use her stepfathers details on her marriage. Opinions please?

Sounds extremely plausible and confirmed by the 1901 census finding - well done!
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff
17-10-11, 13:18
Thanks Margaret :) The marriage is proving a puzzle though. I have found a possible Dorothy Davies and Griffith Williams marriage in 1899 but it's in Haverfordwest. Why would they have got married there I wonder? There is one in Festiniog in 1897 but it's to a Dorothy Griffiths.
Looking for the death of Robert Davies is nigh on impossible. Far too many, especially if he had done a bunk :)

margaretmarch
17-10-11, 15:47
Thanks Margaret :) The marriage is proving a puzzle though. I have found a possible Dorothy Davies and Griffith Williams marriage in 1899 but it's in Haverfordwest. Why would they have got married there I wonder? There is one in Festiniog in 1897 but it's to a Dorothy Griffiths.
Looking for the death of Robert Davies is nigh on impossible. Far too many, especially if he had done a bunk :)

Maybe it was bigamous! they perhaps could not marry locally because everyone would know that first husband had disappeared but not died.
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff
17-10-11, 16:13
Possibly Margaret :) I have just typed out a message for Mike as I realised that he said that he was new to all this.

FOR MIKE -
Sorry Mike, I have just realised that you said you were new to all this. So you are probably wondering what this mad woman is rambling about :D
First of all – sorry, I should have said welcome to FTF.

So in case you haven’t followed all that - what I am suggesting as a possibility is that your grandmother wasn’t born as Sarah Jane Williams at all, but as Sarah Jane Davies, her parents being Dorothy Roberts married to Robert Davies. I then think it’s possible that something happened to Robert i.e. died, left them etc. I then think Dorothy went on to ‘Marry’ or live with Griffith Williams.
If I have this right, Sarah’s grandparents (Morris and Jane Roberts) would have been Farmers and Griffith worked there as a farmer and possibly eventually took over the farm.

buddahbelly
18-10-11, 20:48
Woah, this is amazing! I've printed off your theory, Chrissie, and I'll certainly be going into it with my family. You've really done some work on this! I'll let you know the outcome. So far it does look plausible. Thanks.

Mike:clap:

Chrissie Smiff
18-10-11, 20:56
You're welcome Mike, just hope I'm not leading you up the garden path so to speak :)
As the 'fathers' name and occupation and the births etc all seem to fit though it does look likely.
Do let us know what you find out and come back if you would like any more help.