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View Full Version : This ones a puzzle - Anne Heywood b. 1828 d. 8 Jan 1868



robbrad
12-10-11, 23:13
Ok so im trying to trace this person - who is my 3rd great grandmother

The puzzle is the following - She puts on her m/c Heywood (farther John Heywood - Gamekeeper??) nee Fisher (widow) - now this I beleive until she put Harris on her daughters b/c - I cant trace her on any census but the 1861 one here
Class: RG9; Piece: 2996; Folio: 81; Page: 14; GSU roll: 543062.
Lancashire > Dukinfield > District 19 > 14

The sad thing is her death - Cause: Drowned Herself whilst Insane age 38 years

see attached images

Her m/c

15840


And her daughters (Sarah Whaite) b/c

15841


Can anyone help me uncover anymore info on Anne? do suicides get logged anywhere? i cant make out where she was born and if it is Worcestershire - then i find this highly unlikly that she would move to Lancs?

Any help would be greatly welcomed!!!

Elaine ..Spain
13-10-11, 07:40
Sorry but I have had to remove the images of the certificates from your post because of copyright.
You can scan, crop and post just the centre section which contains the relevant piece of information, but a complete certificate should not be posted.

You will also find it better to post such images on the forum using something like Photobucket rather than the paperclip attachment; the latter produces a small image which is often very difficult to read. You can find help with Photobucket in our Reference & How To Guides (http://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/848-reference-information-and-how-to-guides) section.

margaretmarch
13-10-11, 08:02
There is no separate record for suicides just the death certificate and you might be lucky to find a newspaper article about what happened.

The 1861 census shows her place of birth as Stourport I think.

Margaret

robbrad
13-10-11, 08:02
Thanks Elaine - sorry about that!

robbrad
13-10-11, 08:15
Could it be possible that she was Anne Whaite Nee Fisher, Nee Harris, Nee Heywood ?

Olde Crone Holden
13-10-11, 09:18
My reading of the situation is that she was born Harris - illegitimate - but knew her father to be Heywood the gamekeeper. She then married Fisher, was widowed and married Whaite.

When she married for the second time, she was not actually asked what her birth name had been - she was asked what her name was at the tim she was married, which was Mrs Fisher, widow.

OC

margaretmarch
13-10-11, 09:24
My reading of the situation is that she was born Harris - illegitimate - but knew her father to be Heywood the gamekeeper. She then married Fisher, was widowed and married Whaite.

When she married for the second time, she was not actually asked what her birth name had been - she was asked what her name was at the tim she was married, which was Mrs Fisher, widow.

OC

That sounds very plausible - it's all in what question was asked and in what context isn't it?

Margaret

kylejustin
13-10-11, 09:39
mmm yes, she could have been asked 'what's your maiden name' at one child's birth, and then 'what's your previous name' at another.

margaretmarch
13-10-11, 10:03
mmm yes, she could have been asked 'what's your maiden name' at one child's birth, and then 'what's your previous name' at another.

It was the marriage that gave different information so the question would be what's your name? Anne Fisher - what's your status? widow - what's your father's name and occupation? John Heywood Gamekeeper.
Whereas on a birth registration it would be what's your name? Anne Whaite. What was your maiden name? Harris.

Margaret

robbrad
13-10-11, 10:30
Oh - now thats an interesting theory! illegitimate! I had not thought of that! so my next line of enquery would be the fisher M/C or try to find a Anne Harris on a census?

Olde Crone Holden
13-10-11, 10:47
I've looked for a Fisher/Harris/Heywood marriage and cannot isolate one, so I would look for her on census.

OC

Lindsay
13-10-11, 19:41
Just a thought - the birth cert is obviously not a photocopy of the original so perhaps it's just been transcribed wrongly?

Edit - No, ignore me, it has Harris and Fisher on it, so that theory won't work...

robbrad
14-10-11, 11:22
I want to thank everyone for their help so far - Im still having troube finding her on any earlier censuses than 1861 - might be resided to just getting the death cert and seeing if that adds anything

Darksecretz
14-10-11, 11:49
rob do you have a link to the 1861 census please? I'm not sure which name I should be looking under and I can't do a Cens Ref search on the new search on ancestry.

Darksecretz
14-10-11, 11:50
s'ok dont worry I have found her! :smilee:

1861 for ref:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1861&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=ann&gsln=whaite&msbdy=1828&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-|0|0|3257|3251|0|0|0|5271|0|0|&dbOnly=_F00027B9|_F00027B9_x%2c_F0003039|_F0003039 _x%2c_F000303A|_F000303A_x%2c_F00032DB|_F00032DB_x %2c_83004006|_83004006_x%2c_F000303D|_F000303D_x%2 c_F000303E|_F000303E_x%2c_F00032F6|_F00032F6_x%2c_ F0003888|_F0003888_x&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&pcat=CEN_1860&fh=0&h=9399007&recoff=

Darksecretz
14-10-11, 11:57
hmmn what about this?

1851: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=ann&gsln=fisher&msbdy=1828&msbpn__ftp=Worcestershire%2c+England&msbpn=5291&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5291%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=CEN_1850&h=8825749&recoff=5+6&db=uki1851&indiv=1

she is stated as being wifes sister, so not showing if she is married or not, but there is a Thomas HARRIS a servant living/working with them..

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2035; Folio: 33; Page: 12; GSU roll: 87442.

Darksecretz
14-10-11, 12:08
this might be something to look at

1841:http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=ann&gsln=harris&msbdy=1828&msbpn__ftp=Worcestershire%2c+England&msbpn=5291&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5291%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=CEN_1840&h=11549991&recoff=7+8&db=uki1841&indiv=1

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 1207; Book: 2; Civil Parish: Dodderhill; County: Worcestershire; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 15; Page: 9; Line: 13; GSU roll: 464214.

Dodderhill isnt that far from Stourport.

Janet H.
14-10-11, 19:14
might be worth contacting Tameside Archives, there may be something in the local newspaper of an inquest.
email. localstudies.library@tameside.gov.uk

robbrad
15-10-11, 09:29
Julie wow thanks!!! im going to have a close look at these records a few things stack up for me - thomas is on both 1841 and 1851 and the ages match up - which links those two. And her mum was called Sarah (her first born girl was called Sarah) I cant make out her fathers occupation on the 1841 census - waterman??

Janet - what a great idea - I will do!

Darksecretz
15-10-11, 09:54
Yep Rob, waterman looks to be his occupation in 1841. I think now you have something to work with, in order not to 'go mad' and say they are yours you need to find them in subsequent census to see if they indeed are one and the same family. (I know its not foolproof, but it does help to fine tune things).

also with the 1851 it states that Ann is wifes sister, so you will need to look for an Emily HARRIS marrying a PRICE, and see if she ties in somewhere.

How do you know that Anns mum was a Sarah???

Night Owl
15-10-11, 10:13
Hi Rob

I'm being a bit dense but how did you find her death details and what name are they under because I can't find them.

I was trying to find a newspaper report. Haven't had any luck with inquests but if you have any details of where exactly it happened I could try again.

However what I have found is this in the Manchester Guardian 25th January 1868, in the death notices

"On the 8th inst. ANN WHAITE aged 40; also, on the same date, HELENA WHAITE aged one month; the wife and daughter of George Whaite"

Could be a clue as to why she took her own life

Darksecretz
15-10-11, 10:31
Jackie,

that is looking promising, I wonder if she had more than one daughter?

Darksecretz
15-10-11, 10:43
yep, she did, and she also had a son........... as per the 1861 cens, though, George WHAITE actually dies in 1878 aged 45 (though he does marry a Mary after Anns death)

Night Owl
15-10-11, 10:45
I did wonder whether there may have been other children born between 1861 and 1868. Cheshire BMD has mother's maiden names in some instances and it looks as though there was a Septimus Whaite (MMN Fisher and Harris) born 1863 and a death in 1864, both Dukinfield

robbrad
15-10-11, 11:00
Got to say I love this forum - thanks for your help so far

Your right Julie - I cant be sure Sarah Harris was her mother (found on the 1841 ceneus you sent)

I found the info about the drowning here http://www.whaitefamily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2:family-51-52&catid=1:general&Itemid=3

these are the children I have for Anne/Ann

Samuel John Whaite 1855 – 1931
Sarah Whaite 1858 –
Elizabeth Hyde Whaite 1860 – 1938
Septimus Whaite 1863 – 1864
Laura Whaite 1865 – 1866

Not found a Helena interesting! If she lost a Husband(fisher) and 3 children - sounds like a pritty hard life

Olde Crone Holden
15-10-11, 11:05
There is an Eleanor Whaite born 1868, St George district of Manchester which would fit the Helena.

OC

Night Owl
15-10-11, 11:24
According to that link the death is registered as Annie White, Manchester. There's no Helena White there but there is a Female White aged 0 with the same reference on FreeBMD

robbrad
15-10-11, 11:40
Think id need to see the D/C to confirm it was her... how did you find the Manchester Guardian article Jackie?

Olde Crone Holden
15-10-11, 11:42
Oh dear!

From Lancsbmd

White, girl, 0, St George Manchester STG/75/203
White, Annie, 38, St George, Manchester STG/75/204

(so consecutive pages - looks right to be them)

BUT:

White, Ellener, 0, Market St Manchester MST 91 466.

OC

Darksecretz
15-10-11, 11:42
ooher... Drowned herself whilst Insane age 38 years wife of George White Spindle Maker

Darksecretz
15-10-11, 11:44
I think Rob that you ought to contact whoevers tree this is, and ask them if they can possibly help you.

http://www.whaitefamily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2:family-51-52&catid=1:general&Itemid=3

robbrad
15-10-11, 11:48
ooher... Drowned herself whilst Insane age 38 years wife of George White Spindle Maker

I know intresting, Iv just contacted the owner of that site - Thanks

robbrad
15-10-11, 12:08
Hi Rob

I'm being a bit dense but how did you find her death details and what name are they under because I can't find them.

I was trying to find a newspaper report. Haven't had any luck with inquests but if you have any details of where exactly it happened I could try again.

However what I have found is this in the Manchester Guardian 25th January 1868, in the death notices

"On the 8th inst. ANN WHAITE aged 40; also, on the same date, HELENA WHAITE aged one month; the wife and daughter of George Whaite"

Could be a clue as to why she took her own life

Jackie - How did you find the Manchester Guardian 25th January 1868 ? - Im heading into Manchester today if its somewhere I could go look maybe?

margaretmarch
15-10-11, 13:44
You could probably try Central Library as they often hold copies of old newspapers or access to Gale newspapers which is an online database of 18th/19th Century newspapers. Not sure whether there is a records office but that would be the other local place to try.

Night Owl
15-10-11, 14:34
Jackie - How did you find the Manchester Guardian 25th January 1868 ? - Im heading into Manchester today if its somewhere I could go look maybe?

Sorry just come back on. I belong to Essex Libraries and have online access to The Guardian and Observer Archives through them. It sometimes shows things that aren't in the 19th Century British Library Newspapers collection. I've tried every search term that I can think of in all of the online newspaper access that I have and that item is the only thing I've found.

I wondered whether either the daughter died and so she took her own life or she killed both herself and her daughter - the 2 must be surely be conneccted because they were buried together.

If you want a copy of that notice I can email it to you - just PM me your email address. It doesn't say any more than I've written but its nice to see the real thing.

robbrad
15-10-11, 17:02
I will pm you my email

Iv also ordered both d/c 's for Ann and the girl - so I will let you know what happened as soon as I have more info

Thanks!
Rob

Night Owl
15-10-11, 17:38
I've sent your email Rob

Be interesting to know what happened to the daughter when you get the certificate

robbrad
05-11-11, 14:08
I have just received the death certificate for both, Its as we feared - the little girl was drowned by her mother Anne - very sad.

Hard finding something like that in your own tree

Olde Crone Holden
05-11-11, 14:21
So sad. Bless them both.

OC

Night Owl
05-11-11, 19:39
How very sad.