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alig99
11-10-11, 18:21
I wonder if anyone can help? I have found a relative who is 1 year old on the 1871 census, unfortunately I can't read the head of the household's surname, my relative's name is William Tucker Baggs born either 1869 or 1870 either born in Boro' or Southwark London and he is noted as a boarder, I wonder where his mother is as the surname of the head of the household although I can't read doesn't seem to me to read as Baggs. I'd really appreciate any help on this I'm particularly keen on finding his parents and how they might be related to the family his is boarding with in 1871.

many thanks in anticipation Ali

MyAinFolk
11-10-11, 18:26
FindMyPast have the head of household transcribed as Lawson Scarnel Fryer. Very faint writing but that looks plausible to me.

Kirsty

mancunianred
11-10-11, 18:35
FindMyPast have the head of household transcribed as Lawson Scarnel Fryer. Very faint writing but that looks plausible to me.

Kirsty

Ancestry has it Lawren Searnel Frayer. I have to admit it looks like Searnel to me.

Robert

JudithM
11-10-11, 18:35
Lawson Samuel Fryer - didn't look at transcription, this is my interpretation.

Seems to be a marriage for him and wife Ann Maria Q2 1851 in Bermondsey He is listed as Lawson Fryer or Lawton Fryer, she as Ann Maria Lawson or Ann Maria Lawton.

Have found this marriage on Ancestry, May 26 1851 in Christchurch, Bermondsey. His first name and her surname both look like Lawson to me. Her father Charles Lawson, carpenter; his father Christmas Fryer, farmer

Christine in Herts
11-10-11, 19:25
Lawson's baptism is on the FamilySearch site:
image 30/54 (page 50, entry 400) of the Hempnall, Norfolk, parish baptism register, March 14, 1824.

I'm not sure that that middle name is any easier to read!

He's described (I think) as Lawson Scarnell, Son of Christmas & Lucey late SCARNELL, surname FRYER.

The family - or some of it - shows up in 1841 in Hempnall, but the wife is "Ann". HO107/757 bk/fo 12 p 16.

I guess that more info could be found by trawling the parish registers for Hempnall - but I don't think I should be doing that!

Chrisitne

alig99
11-10-11, 19:48
Thank you all for you help with the name, I'll order William Tucker's birth cert to try and find out who his mother is, he is only a baby in 1871, does anyone have an opinion on why he might have been left with the Fryer's? thanks a million again for you help, Alison

JudithM
11-10-11, 20:09
Perhaps an unmarried mum who had to earn a living so put son with foster parent? If this is the case (and of course his birth cert will tell) perhaps his middle name of Tucker was his father's surname.

kylejustin
13-10-11, 08:51
you dont have a marriage for tucker?

alig99
14-10-11, 09:34
Hi thanks to everyone for your help, I too did wondered if his mother was unmarried or had been deserted, which left me wondering if William Tucker Baggs is related to the family or not, am not sure how to find out other than order WT's birth cert.

Kylejustin William Tucker Baggs married Marion Rose Miller June 1893 Woolwich Kent. I haven't managed to find parents of either Marion or William yet.

kind regards Ali

kylejustin
14-10-11, 10:51
if you had a copy of the cert, it would give father's names and occupations. that would at least help identify the families you are after.

Barrie Stevens
03-03-12, 15:13
It is Lawson Scarnell Fryer born in Hempnall Norfolk in 1824 and died Bermondsey St Olave's District 1892. He is my Great Great Grandfather. His father was Christmas Fryer born in Hempnall 25 December 1794. Christmas Fryer married (Twice in two different churches!) Lucy Scarnell daughter of Yeoman farmer Lawson Scarnell of "The Green Hempnall" who died in 1808. His will can be seen on the Norfolk Record Office NOAH on-line system...."The Green" is a road above Hempnall....Christmas Fryer farmed in Hempnall until the early 1870s....Lawson Scarnell Fryer did marry Ann Lawson (Charlady)...They had a son William Lawson Fryer born 1852 11th May in Bermondsey Workhouse died Walthamstow 1940...He married Mary Ann Pennington 26th May 1876 St James Bermondsey...We do not know if the "Lawson" was a perpetuation of Lawson Scarnell of Hempnall Yeoman or was derived from Ann Lawson (Above)...William Lawson Fryer became a Navy pensioner and the Census records him as a pensioner in 1829...William Lawson Fryer and his wife had my Grandfather Jack Fryer and amongst others he and his wife Alice Rose had my mother Kathleen Fryer and her brother also called William Lawson Fryer....

Barrie Stevens
03-03-12, 15:15
It is Lawson Scarnell Fryer born Hempnall Norfolk 1824 died Berrmondsey 1892. My Gt Gt Grandfather

Barrie Stevens
03-03-12, 15:17
Sorry a pensioner aged 29! I was told they all lived at one time at Keaton Road Bermondsey and I was taken there as a biy aged about 4..I recall tall houses and a road lined with trees. Keaton Road is still there and lined with trees but all the houses are new...

Barrie Stevens
03-03-12, 15:26
Ann Rackham was Christmas Fryer's second wife...Lucy died Norfolk Record Office NOAH on line has some legal papers signed by Christmas Fryer...

Darksecretz
03-03-12, 20:42
Lets hope that Alison gets a swift reply back to you Barrie.

Debbss
03-03-12, 21:07
WOW!! you lot are amazing!
:)

alig99
04-03-12, 11:54
Lets hope that Alison gets a swift reply back to you Barrie.
Sorry did you ask me a question Barrie?
Alison

Barrie Stevens
05-03-12, 14:37
Might be a fostering arrangement from the Bermondsey (St Olave's) Workhouse...Lawson Scarnell Fryer son of farmer Christmas Fryer of Hempnall Norfolk and my Gt Gt Grandfather had a son William Lawson Fryer who was my Gt Grandfather and he was born in Bermondsey Workhouse 11th May 1852 and died in Chester Road Walthamstow 1940....Lawson Scarnell Fryer also had Charles Jonathan Fryer born Southwark 1862...Elizabeth A Fryer born Southwark 1865 and Sarah J Fryer born Southwark 1868... Lawson Scarnell Fryer my Gt Gt Grandfather and his family at a time lived in Storey Street the Borough and then at White Hart Yard which I think is Borough..My Grandfather Jack Fryer son of William Lawson Fryer told me that his Grandfather had a fish barrow which he kept in White Hart Yard and buried some money under a cobblestone and that his father ie Jack Fryer's father William Lawson Fryer had dug the stone up and kept the money after the old man died...My Grandfather Jack Fryer told me that his fishhawking Grandfather was Irish and for years I thought Fryer was Irish but I see now Grandad Jack Fryer must have meant the father of Mary Ann Pennington born Holborn in 1855...William Lawson Fryer Married Mary Ann Pennington at St James Bermondsey on 26th March 1876...She died in Edmonton September 1897..I have posted some photos of the Fryers on "Roots Chat" website which can often be reached by Googling "Fryer Family of Hempnall"...William Lawson Fryer and family lived in Keaton Road Bermondsey and aged 29 he is described in a Census as a "Pensioner"...His trade was boilermaker but he was for a while in the Royal Navy and was invalided out hence the Pension..William Lawson Fryer joined the Royal Navy on 11th May 1870 but was inavlided out on 4th July 1874...

Barrie Stevens
05-03-12, 14:37
No I don't think so?

Barrie Stevens
13-06-12, 22:17
The ancestral home of Lawson Scarnell Fryer and Christmas Fryer and Lawson Scarnell Junior was Chestnut Tree Farm, "The Green" Hempnall Norfolk...It was the farm owned by Lawson Scarnell Senior who died in 1808....His widow lived on for another 40 years...There is a will and other docs on "Norfolk Sources" under Probate being the will of Lawson Scarnell (1808) and various affidavits by Christmas Fryer regarding his deceased wife's portion of the Estate which something happened to in 1849....The Estate was not to be distributed until Mrs Lawson Scarnell died....Thus Christmas Fryer's kids by his wife Lucy daughter of Lawson Scarnell Senior had to wait until 1849 for their money...About six of them shared about £100...."The Green" Hempnall in those days meant "Great Green" now known as "Silver Green" and so Chestnut Tree Farm about 9.50 acres is today Chestnute Tree Farm, Road Green, Hempnall, Norfolk. The main farm and house and plot over the road is occupupied by Dye's timber yard and saw mills..You can get it on Google-Earth....Christmas Fryer and second wife Ann Rackham lived in Wortwill near Harleston, Norfolk in 1861...Christmas died in Norwich 2nd Feb 1874..Christmas Fryer's father was William Fryer who married Mary Bowles possibly daughter of Thomas Bowles of Hempnall...With his he had Thomas Fryer, William Fryer Jnr and Charles ledger Fryer...William Fryer Senior married again Bridget (Biddy) Beckett...She was the mother of Christmas Fryer...Christmas Fryer's half-brother Thomas Fryer owned a property in Hempnall in 1802 in which lived a "William Fryer"...William Fryer Senior died in the village poor cottage just over the road from St Margaret's Hempnall aged 75-76 in 1842-3....Thomas Fryer, half brother to Christmas Fryer, made good in Great Yarmouth marrying Keziah Bultitude (See Mormon website)...They had a son Hezekiah Thomas Fryer baptised St Nicholas Gt Yarmouth 1813...Also a daughter Mary Ann Fryer who married John Thomas Clifton (See Mormons)...They had a son Hezekiah Thomas Fryer Clifton born 1828 died Teddington/Kingston on Thames 1915....The will of Thomas Fryer 1849 is on "Norfolk Sources" website under Probate...He owned four tenements, a blacksmith and wheelwwight's with accomodation above, a house in Ferry Boat Row and also a share in Great Yarmouth Cemetery where he had a family tomb or vault...The will can be viewed and save and I find it easier to read in the programme "Paint"....Let me know if you want more!!!!

Barrie Stevens
13-06-12, 22:22
Kirsty...I have put on this site a lot more detail about Lawson Scarnell Fryer and his Norfolk roots!....Barrie Stevens

Barrie Stevens
17-07-12, 10:15
It is Lawson Scarnell Fryer of Hempnall Norfolk and he is my Great Great Grandfather...He had a son William Lawson Fryer my Great Grandfather and born in Bermondsey Workhouse 1852 died Walthamstow 1940....William Lawson Fryer had a son John Fryer died Walthamstow 1968 my Grandfather....Lawson Scarnell Fryer was the son of Christmas Fryer and Lucy Fryer nee Scarnell of Hempnall Norfolk...They married twice once in Great Yarmouth St Nicholas' in 1814 and again in St Margaret's Hempnall 1815...Lucy Fryer was daughter of yeoman farmer Lawson Scarnell of Hempnall died 1808 his will is on-line in "Norfolk Sources"...Lawson Scarnell came from Beccles but died Hempnall aged 41...I have not identified his farm...Lawson Scarnell Jnr brother in law of Christmas Fryer and uncle of Lawson Scarnell Fryer farmed Chestnut Tree Farm Road Green-Silver Green Hempnall and still there as Dye's Timber Yard..Lawson Scarnell Jnr died 1870 buried in Fritton church Norfolk...Christmas Fryer and his wife farmed until the 1860s what is now called Turkey Row Cottage Turkey Row Lundy Green....Christmas Fryer's father was William Fryer of Hempnall died there 1842 and he at one time farmed Road Green Farm still there....So all three farms are in a row and can be seen on Google Earth...I have a photo of Chestnut Tree Farm and Turkey Row Cottage now holiday lets...

Barrie Stevens
17-07-12, 10:21
I now realise that Chestnut Tree Farm Road Green Silver Green Hempnall was not the farm of Lawson Scarnell yeoman of Hempnall died there 1808...Lawson Scarnell left a will and his farm was to be sold...It was a freehold...Chestnut Tree Farm is a copyhold (leased) farm from the local manor and in 1615 was said to be 5 acres....Lawson Scarnell Jnr farmed Chestnut Tree Farm in the 1840s and 1850s but I have yet to identify the farm of Lawson Scarnell Snr...

Barrie Stevens
08-08-12, 13:29
I now confirm that Chestnut Tree Farm now "English Hardwoods sawmills" was the farm of Lawson Scarnell who died 1808 and whose will is on "Norfolk Sources" ....He had a son Lawson Scarnell Jnr who farmed the farm with his mother Sarah Scarnell as the owner...When she Sarah Scarnell nee Cox died in 1848 the farm was sold for £600...It was actually about six acres....Lawson Scarnell was my 4xGreat Grandfather....My 3xGreat Grandfather was Christmas Fryer born Hempnall 25th December 1794 died Norwich 2nd February 1874....He married Lucy Scarnell of Chestnut Tree Farm and he and Lucy Fryer nee Scarnell farmed 10 acres of land in the area known as Turkey Row just down the road from Chestnut Tree Farm...Lucy Fryer died about 1833-34 I think and later Christmas Fryer married Ann Rackham...In 1861 census they live at Low Street Wortwell, Harleston, Norfolk....Christmas and Lucy Fryer had a son Lawson Scarnell Fryer born in Hempnall 1824 died St Olave's Bermondsey 1892...He was a labourer....His son was William Lawson Fryer and his son was my Grandfather John Fryer....Christmas Fryer's father was William Fryer died Hempnall 1842 in a cottage opposite St Margaret's...It was a poor house....William Fryer had been a yeoman farmer and for a while farmed Road Green Farm set above Chestnut Tree Farm Hempnall...William Fryer's first wife was Mary Bowles...Her father Thomas Bowles died and passed the farm to her...Mary died and William Fryer married Bridget Beckett of Hmpnall and one of their children was Christmas Fryer...

Christine in Herts
08-08-12, 14:36
Wow! You really have managed to pull it all together - well done! And thank you for sharing the outcome with us all.

Christine

Barrie Stevens
17-03-13, 10:24
I have photos of Lawson Scarnell Fryer and his wife Ann Maria Lawson they are my GtGt Grandparents. Photos dated about 1876..How can I send these to you?

Paul Nash
09-01-19, 17:47
It is Lawson Scarnell Fryer of Hempnall Norfolk and he is my Great Great Grandfather...He had a son William Lawson Fryer my Great Grandfather and born in Bermondsey Workhouse 1852 died Walthamstow 1940....William Lawson Fryer had a son John Fryer died Walthamstow 1968 my Grandfather....Lawson Scarnell Fryer was the son of Christmas Fryer and Lucy Fryer nee Scarnell of Hempnall Norfolk...They married twice once in Great Yarmouth St Nicholas' in 1814 and again in St Margaret's Hempnall 1815...Lucy Fryer was daughter of yeoman farmer Lawson Scarnell of Hempnall died 1808 his will is on-line in "Norfolk Sources"...Lawson Scarnell came from Beccles but died Hempnall aged 41...I have not identified his farm...Lawson Scarnell Jnr brother in law of Christmas Fryer and uncle of Lawson Scarnell Fryer farmed Chestnut Tree Farm Road Green-Silver Green Hempnall and still there as Dye's Timber Yard..Lawson Scarnell Jnr died 1870 buried in Fritton church Norfolk...Christmas Fryer and his wife farmed until the 1860s what is now called Turkey Row Cottage Turkey Row Lundy Green....Christmas Fryer's father was William Fryer of Hempnall died there 1842 and he at one time farmed Road Green Farm still there....So all three farms are in a row and can be seen on Google Earth...I have a photo of Chestnut Tree Farm and Turkey Row Cottage now holiday lets...
Hello Barrie. Appreciate this is a reply to an old forum posting but I just found it. My ancestors also lived on Turkey Row in what I believe was the same cottage. William Nash was his name and his wife Alice along with 7 children as of the 1911 census. The Nash's had many families in and around Hempnall plus farms at the Great Green and Fritton. There are a couple of Nash's on the Hempnall war memorial and the Charles Nash is the brother of my Grand Father. You mention a photo of the cottage, - can you please share it? Many thanks for any help. Paul

Jill on the A272
09-01-19, 19:01
Paul, I've removed your email address in line with forum policy, but I have messaged Barrie for you.

GallowayLass
09-01-19, 22:09
Did you ever get that birth certificate? His mother was a Baggs as according to GRO online index William Tucker Baggs was illegitimate born 1869 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR Volume 01D Page 18 Occasional Copy: A