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  • Please can anyone help me.

    I know, before I start, that I have probably posted this thread, on the wrong board, but have looked , first, and I am not sure which board it is supposed to have posted under, so apologies, in advance.

    I am trying to find a birth of someone who was born in 1828, in Bethnal Green. Her name is Ellen Collier. I think that I have posted, before about her baptism, maybe some while ago, but as I now realise that her mother died any time up to one year after her birth, it is a good probablility that she was never baptised, at all.
    Her name is Ellen Collier. Her father, I do know, already, (from marriage cert) was Thomas Collier. All the other children of Thomas were baptised at St Matthews Bethnal Green, and were living at St Johns Street, at this time. But I can't even find a BIRTH for Ellen. I wondered whether anyone might be going to the records office for this area, and would look up this info for me, please.

    There was also an Ann Collier, sister of Ellen, who was born around 1826, also no baptism, for her, maybe their mother was too ill, so am reliant on the birth records. if any!!!!!!!!!!!

    There were multiple baptisms of their siblings in 1823, I believe, when the family were living at St Johns Street Bethnal Green, but nothing else as recent as Ann or Ellen's birth years.
    I think that only a look up at the records office is going to help me now. I have census for the family from 1841 and onwards, for each person, so not in need of them, also Ellen's marriage cert, too.
    Is there anyone out there that might be going to the records office in that area, please. Thank you very much for your time.
    Last edited by blosoom; 24-09-11, 11:03.

  • #2
    For that time period there will be no birth records other than baptism registers as civil registration of births did not start until 1837. Records office holding church registers for Bethnal Green is the London Metropolitan Archive which has its registers online - presumably this is where you found her older siblings' baptisms?
    Last edited by JudithM; 24-09-11, 17:07. Reason: Corrected date after Lynne spotted my error
    Judith passed away in October 2018

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    • #3
      Oops Judith - 1837!! LOL.
      Lynne

      Searching for Ford, Duffy, (Manchester and Ireland) Cree (Manchester, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire), Owen (Manchester), Humphreys (Manchester and Ireland), Egerton (Manchester and Cheshire), Cresswell (Manchester).

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      • #4
        Thanks Lynne! We wouldn't get far with our research if 1937 was the correct date!
        Judith passed away in October 2018

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        • #5
          Blosoom -
          Sounds like you have found the baptisms of the children of Thomas & Mary Ann Collier on 17 Aug 1823 at St Matthews. They are indexed on familysearch.

          If you look at the indexed records, they each have a film number associated with them - all the same, as they were baptized on the same day.

          That film number can be looked up in the library catalog


          that film, and the others listed for St Matthews, can be ordered to your local Family History Centre for you to search. Personally, I think if Ellen's baptism/birth were in that parish it would be indexed on familysearch, but it is possible that the indexing project mistranscribed (or the curate mis-wrote) Ellen's name.

          If you truly need someone else to search St Matthews records for you (you can't get to an FHC or whatever), then yes, it's probably best to put this in the research request section.

          Is your goal to have her exact birthdate? Confirm her mother's name?

          Best wishes in your search

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          • #6
            Hello Judith,
            Thanks for your help and time. I found all the info on Ancestry, but although I know that there are no civil registrations until 1837 I just wanted to see that there was an entry for an Ellen Collier, born around that date, to a Thomas Collier and Mary Ann. This would be all the info that I would need. As the other siblings all have their baptism, except Ellen and Ann, I cannot connect Ellen, for sure, until I confirm her birth. Ann was on her father's marriage record when he remarried after her mother's death. Ann was his witness. Also all the other members of the family lived near to each other, (same road, at one time or other ) not sure that is relevant.

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            • #7
              Thanks PhotoFamily,
              Yes it is just to confirm that she is DEFINITELEY the daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann. I have her marriage cert where it states her father as a Thomas Collier, so know that to be correct, and she is on the 1841 census and is down as Lollie, as the surname, but I want to make that connection with her mother's name.
              If I want to request that someone looks for me, at the records office, how do I go about that now, on here, please. Thanks for your help.

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              • #8
                Blossom

                On the marriage cert, did it state that father Thomas was a weaver? This was given as his trade in the baptism records, and his wife was always given as Mary or Mary Ann.

                If you have Ancestry, you can browse through the St Matthew parish register yourself, without going to a record office to look at the film. London, England births & baptisms 1813-1906; browse Tower Hamlets/Bethnal Green St Matthew.

                Carol
                Last edited by Carol Bird; 25-09-11, 13:32.

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                • #9
                  Blosoom -
                  Carol is correct - you can search ancestry's documents page by page. You would need to search the card catalog and find London, England births & baptisms 1813-1906; browse Tower Hamlets/Bethnal Green St Matthew and search page by page for the dates involved. Do you have access to ancestry?

                  Everyone at the address had the same surname, Lollie? Did you look at the actual census page, or are you just using the transcription by database system that you're using? Transcription errors happen all the time, and the enumerators got it wrong too! I don't know that I would be discouraged by "Lollie" in using the census record as proof.

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                  • #10
                    Hello to Carol and Photo Family,
                    Once again thank you to you for your help.
                    I do have Ancestry, and had looked at the original of the 1841 census. which seems to be the only link with the other members of this family to my Ellen. I realise that as this census page, was of very bad quality it does, I think, in my opinion say Collier. The address was Fleet Street, Bethnal Green, which was only a stones throw from where Thomas was when he remarried, later, to an Elizabeth Piper nee Wilkinson.
                    Thomas, on her marriage cert was down as a weaver. But I should point out that there is also a Thomas Collier, of Bethnal Green, who was married to a Mary (Kemp) This Thomas, I believe, is the uncle of mine.
                    This Thomas was a brers servant, to start with then inherited some leases and money, from his father and became a 'Gent'
                    I have looked through Ancestry for Ellen's birth, or baptism, and realised that, as Mary Ann, Ellen's mother, died in 1829 then that is probably the reason that Ellen, at least was not baptised, but I thought there would have been a birth record, somewhere, for her, with her mother's name on it.
                    Some kind person did help me find the details of her family, some time ago, but as am going to a Collier convention soon, thought it would be nice to have some more info on my family, to share, with others with the same connections.
                    I very much appreciate your help and advice. thank you

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                    • #11
                      I forgot to mention that on Ancestry, as you mentioned isn't that the baptism records, which I don't think Ellen had. I think possibly she was not because of her mother's health, but might be wrong. That was why I thought I would be able to find the birth by someone doing a look up for me, at the records office
                      Thanks

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                      • #12
                        There's unlikely to be any other source that early - no civil registration at that time.

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                        • #13
                          Hello,
                          If someone were to go to the records office would that give the mother's name, at least first name, if there WERE a record of Ellen's birth. ( not holding out for a baptism, now) have been looking on the Ancestry site for baptism for her in different years. My thinking was that if her mother weas ill then maybe she wasn't baptised before her mother's death, in 1829. So have tried scolling through the years to follow. But would just like the birth to connect her, for sure, to Mary Ann.
                          Thanks again

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                          • #14
                            There are no separate records of births before 1837. The only record of someone before a marriage would be a baptism/christening.

                            Have you checked any non-conformist registers? I know you have all the other children baptised in the parish church but you never know.

                            Margaret

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                            • #15
                              Yes, Margaret, I believe that I did, some time ago, although Ancestry have been updating, all the time, so maybe I will look again.
                              Thank you

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                              • #16
                                might be an idea also to check the names Eleanor/Helen too.
                                Julie
                                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                .......I find dead people

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                                  might be an idea also to check the names Eleanor/Helen too.
                                  And even Nell(ie)

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                                  • #18
                                    In fact have you tried simply putting in the surname in the principal field, and then the parents' given names, with a limiting timespan? She could have been baptised somewhere else?

                                    Christine
                                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                                    • #19
                                      Hello Ladies,
                                      Thank you. Yes, in fact, only the other day, on Ancestry, I put in just the surname, of Collier and then on one search the date range, given a few years, then the other search, I did, was with no date range, at all.
                                      On one of the census she was down as Helen, and so looked under that name too.I haven't looked under another region, although when I was searching for her, in Bethnal Green, obviously other areas do come up, and, as I had put in the name of the father, there was nothing else, in that area. I tell a lie, there was one, that was a Thomas Norman collier but his occupation did not match with my Thomas, who was a silk weaver, till he died, around 1848.
                                      This Thomas Norman had a daughter, Ellen, but I believe they were from Newington, and she was from Bethnal Green, according to all the census.
                                      Once again, many thanks

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                                      • #20
                                        There are weaver guild records. I've not explored them (I need to), and guilds were falling apart in the 1800s. British Origins has indexed many London guilds up to 1800, tho I'm not sure it contains weavers. You might be able to find her father. Occasionally women were accepted into the guild.

                                        Did you check wills? If Thomas left one, he might have named daughters

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