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Needle in a haystack?

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  • Needle in a haystack?

    We don't know the birth surname of my grandmother as she tore up her birth cetificate because she was ashamed of being illegitimate. As we have exhausted all names we could think of (well, three in total) we are stumped.

    It means a trip to the Records Office in Farringdon, London, for my Mum and I. My question is, how on earth we do we start to look? Is it possible to start with her christian name, date of birth and her mother's name?

  • #2
    hello Kathy, do you know who your grandmother married? if you have her marriage cert this will give her MN. is granny passed over if so you could post the details on here, if she is still living then its better to exchange info via PM (private message) what sort of year are we looking please, this might help,. if both your grandparents are passed then you could post the details.
    Julie
    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

    .......I find dead people

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    • #3
      Does your Mum not have a copy of her own birth certificate? It will have Mother's Maiden name on there.

      Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

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      • #4
        Hi Julie

        Both my grandparents are deceased. I have their marriage certificate, but on that she shows her maiden name as Bishop which was the name of the man who brought her up. We know he wasn't her father and her mother wasn't married to Bishop. Very complicated! Have looked at just Kathleen, dob 28 July 1902, mother's name Lydia Hardy, but she doesn't appear on either Ancestry or Family Search. We know her birth was registered because she told my Mum that she tore her birth certificate up. It's a mystery.......

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        • #5
          We know she used the name Bishop on her marriage certificate because she didn't want anyone to know she was illegitimate. She was a proud woman, bless her.

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          • #6
            You say her mother's name was Lydia Hardy. If she was born illegitimate then Hardy would be the only surname on her birth certificate (unless of course her mother used an assumed name when she registered the birth.)
            Judith passed away in October 2018

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            • #7
              if she was illegitimate then wouldnt she just have her mother's name ie hardy?
              there are two potential kathleen hardys one born jan1902 in west ham and the other born april 1902 in bradford west yorkshire tho rereading your post seems neither fit her birthday in july. very sorry.
              Angelina

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              • #8
                Another thought. Do you know in what part of the country she grew up, and how early Mr Bishop came on the scene. Would a search of 1911 census for Kathleen aged 8, mother Lydia help find her birth place or other clues?
                Judith passed away in October 2018

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                • #9
                  Thing is, I have applied for a birth certificate under Kathleen Hardy and my request came back as 'not found'! There was another surname which we thought might work 'Lee' but that came back the same. You can see why we are stumped......

                  Judith, she grew up in London to the best of my knowledge. In Ralph Bishop's WW1 records (1914-1920) he gives his next of kin as Lydia Harde and states her as his 'unofficial wife'.

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                  • #10
                    Are you sure Lydia's name was Hardy, and not Harde (as stated in the Army Records)??? - (Although I guess they would be pronounced the same.)

                    There is a birth registered in Sep Qtr 1915 at Camberwell for Ralph Bishop, with mother's maiden name Harde.
                    If you know your grandmother had a brother called Ralph, it might be worth getting the certificate to confirm that the mother was Lydia Harde, becuase Lydia could be a middle name, or nickname.
                    Last edited by Tippin; 11-08-11, 16:43.
                    Families Intrested in
                    Archer (DBY), Bannister (SFK/STS), Br(o/a)mley (DBY), Darrall (SAL/WAR), Florence (STS), Freeman (WAR), Grimsdell (BKM/STS), Knight (WAR), Sheldrake (SKF), Simpson (LND/STS), Smith (SFK/WAR/WOR), Tatham (LND), Tippin(s) (HEF/WAR), Wagstaff (DBY/NTT), Whitefoot (SAL/WAR)

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                    • #11
                      Tippin, that Ralph Bishop was my grandmother's brother. I have looked under Harde too. Each time, I hit a brick wall........................

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                      • #12
                        Just a thought - How do you know your grandmother was illegitimate?

                        It seem strange that somebody would tear up their birth certificate to hid the fact they were illegitimate - but then let the information become know.

                        My great grandmother was illegitimate, and she tried to hide the fact by making a name up for her father when she married, and then told her children her maiden name was Lightfoot, when it was actually Whitefoot! None of her children were aware of the fact until me and my father started researching the family.

                        Originally posted by kathyhpink View Post
                        Tippin, that Ralph Bishop was my grandmother's brother. I have looked under Harde too. Each time, I hit a brick wall........................
                        Yes, I have had a look at Harde, but have come up with nothing yet.
                        Last edited by Tippin; 11-08-11, 16:54.
                        Families Intrested in
                        Archer (DBY), Bannister (SFK/STS), Br(o/a)mley (DBY), Darrall (SAL/WAR), Florence (STS), Freeman (WAR), Grimsdell (BKM/STS), Knight (WAR), Sheldrake (SKF), Simpson (LND/STS), Smith (SFK/WAR/WOR), Tatham (LND), Tippin(s) (HEF/WAR), Wagstaff (DBY/NTT), Whitefoot (SAL/WAR)

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                        • #13
                          Hi Tippin, yes Ralph born in 1915 was my grandmother's brother. I'll try and get hold of a certificate for him. This is a real hard one......

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                          • #14
                            You mention that Lee was another of your possible names - I notice that in Ralph's army pension records, he states he had 2 children, Ralph and Lydia born 1912. There is a registration for a Lydia Bishop, mmn Lee in Southwark district in 1912, march quarter. Is this one you are aware of - again getting this certificate could determine the mothers maiden name.

                            Linda
                            Linda


                            My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

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                            • #15
                              Checking FreeBMd, july quarter 1902, there is an entry for a Kathleen Hards, born in Greenwich. It is quite possible for an "e" to be misread as a "s". Have you tried this one yet?

                              Linda
                              Linda


                              My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by ozgirl View Post
                                Checking FreeBMd, july quarter 1902, there is an entry for a Kathleen Hards, born in Greenwich. It is quite possible for an "e" to be misread as a "s". Have you tried this one yet?

                                Linda
                                I think Linda has found Kathleen - I cannot find a entry on the 1911 census for a Kathleen Hards born c.1902 - and there does not seem to be a death either. - Although I would apply to the local register office instead of the GRO just in case!
                                Families Intrested in
                                Archer (DBY), Bannister (SFK/STS), Br(o/a)mley (DBY), Darrall (SAL/WAR), Florence (STS), Freeman (WAR), Grimsdell (BKM/STS), Knight (WAR), Sheldrake (SKF), Simpson (LND/STS), Smith (SFK/WAR/WOR), Tatham (LND), Tippin(s) (HEF/WAR), Wagstaff (DBY/NTT), Whitefoot (SAL/WAR)

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by ozgirl View Post
                                  You mention that Lee was another of your possible names - I notice that in Ralph's army pension records, he states he had 2 children, Ralph and Lydia born 1912. There is a registration for a Lydia Bishop, mmn Lee in Southwark district in 1912, march quarter. Is this one you are aware of - again getting this certificate could determine the mothers maiden name.

                                  Linda
                                  Hi Linda, yes this Lydia Bishop was my grandmother's sister.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ozgirl View Post
                                    Checking FreeBMd, july quarter 1902, there is an entry for a Kathleen Hards, born in Greenwich. It is quite possible for an "e" to be misread as a "s". Have you tried this one yet?

                                    Linda
                                    Ooh, Linda this sounds the closest one yet. I'll investigate this one, many thanks.

                                    Tippin, excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between GRO and the local register office? And in this case, would it be the Greenwich register office.

                                    I'm getting excited here. Am off to explore and will report back

                                    Many many thanks to one and all for your very kind help

                                    xx

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                                    • #19
                                      OMG, I am almost sure now that Kathleen Hards is my grandmother. I have found her two brothers, Ralph whose mmn was Harde, Joseph whose mmn was Hards, her sister Phyllis whose mmn was Hards and another sister whose mmn was - wait for it - Lee! One of the names I thought it might be. Curiouser and curiouser. I'm going to send off for a birth certifcate for Kathleen Hards now.

                                      I'm not going to get my Mum's hopes up by telling her just yet, wait until I get/don't get a birth certificate.

                                      By the way Tippin, she definitely was illegitimate. By the sound of it my great grandmother got around a bit, if you know what I mean, lol?! After tearing up her birth certificate, my mother was the only person that she told. Poor thing, it's not a disgrace now like it was when she was younger. How times change.

                                      Anyway, I will keep you all informed about the birth certificate, or not, as the case maybe, but it sounds as though you've all hit the nail on the end, lol. As usual in this kind of research, it's always the name changes that sends us off on the wrong path *wink*

                                      xx

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                                      • #20
                                        Glad to have helped - hope it works out for you. Do keep us posted.

                                        Linda
                                        Linda


                                        My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

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