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Remnants [sic] or Rembrance (Ditchingham or Broome, Norfolk)

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  • Remnants [sic] or Rembrance (Ditchingham or Broome, Norfolk)

    I have two distant relatives in the family tree:

    Ann Rembrants b Ditchingham, Norfolk 1812 [based on 1851 Census]
    She married Jabez Perfect at Broome, Norfolk 12 May 1833.

    and

    Edward Rembrance b 1807 Wotton, Norfolk [based on 1861 Census]
    He married Rachel Perfect at Broome, Norfolk 23 June 1835.

    Jabez and Rachel were brother and sister.
    In the various censuses and other records (FreeReg transcripts, BMD indexes) the Rembrance surname is spelt in ways which suggest none of the owners was literate - and it is a rare enough name to be unfamiliar to the officials who might have to spell it for them, which makes it tough for everyone else!

    I suspect Ann and Edward might themselves be brother and sister, but I can find no evidence either way.

    There is a family in the 1841 Census HO107/779/25/1 at Ditchingham (all b Norfolk)
    Daniel Remnants age 60
    Hariet age 40
    Daniel age 30
    Frances 20
    Alfred 25
    Maria 20
    Nathaniel 18
    Stephen 2
    Moschar (???) 2 months

    into which they could well slot, with Daniel snr as father. Hariet could be sister or perhaps stepmother.....

    NB all the places are almost in Suffolk, so I have tried looking (online) there as well.

    Has anyone any ideas - or information - about Edward and Ann?

  • #2
    Hi
    Edward Remnants born 5th bap 12th Oct 1806 at Woodton, Norfolk parents Charles & Phoebe (formerly Gates). Private baptism.
    Moggie

    Comment


    • #3
      maudarby - thanks.

      I think I've seen Charles and Phoebe already in another context. Anything on Ann?

      Comment


      • #4
        I found where I've seen Charles and Phoebe but...

        1841 Census HO107/784/7/9 Paston, Norfolk
        Charles Remblents age 50, Ag Lab, b Norfolk
        Phoebe age 50 b Norfolk
        Charlotte age 35 b Norfolk
        in the household of a John Walpole (Farmer)

        This is 30 miles from Ditchingham, Woodton etc which is much further away than anyone else in the tree in that generation. But, I say to myself, it IS a rare surname, so it is probably the same couple.
        I can't see any of these three in 1851 in Norfolk or Suffolk.

        BMD has, for Charles: Edward Charles Remblants d Loddon [which includes Ditchingham] 1847 Q2
        and Phoebe Remblants d Tunstead [which includes Paston] 1852 Q1 - so why could she not be found in 1851, which would pin down a better date and place of birth? Grrr!

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi
          There doesn't appear to be a baptism at Ditchingham for Ann c1812.
          Two other children for Charles & Phoebe.
          Emily bap 31st Jan 1802 Ditchingham & Charlotte born 5th July & bap 5th Aug 1804 at Woodton.
          Marriage for Charles Remnants & Phoebe Gates both single.
          26th Oct 1801 Ditchingham Witnesses Mary Kersey & James Tibnam

          Marriage for Daniel Remnant & Elizabeth Taylor both single.
          8th Nov 1805 Ditchingham Witnesses Frances Cooper & Robert Taylor.

          2nd marriage for Daniel Remnants widower, farmer & Harriet Knights widow.
          13th March 1841 Ditchingham Witnesses Richard & Elizabeth Buck.
          Groom's father Daniel Remnants, woodman, bride's father Charles Patrick, labourer

          Children of Daniel & his first wife Elizabeth appear to have been baptised at Earsham between 1805 & 1822, no sign of an Ann.
          Possibly Charles & Daniel were brothers.
          Baptisms at Hedenham for children of Daniel Remnants & Susan (Allen) include a Daniel bap 1780 & a Charles born 1783.

          Moggie

          Comment


          • #6
            BMD has, for Charles: Edward Charles Remblants d Loddon [which includes Ditchingham] 1847 Q2

            He was 8 months old buried at Broome

            Moggie

            Comment


            • #7
              Just looked up Ann and Jabez's marriage on the family search pilot scheme and the witnesses were Edward Renmants (mark) and Susannah Parfet (signed) so Edward could be Anns brother.
              Lin

              Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

              Comment


              • #8
                Edward and Rachels marriage was witnessed by John Perfect and Susannah Perfect. All 4 signed.

                This doesn't help with Ann and Edwards relationship to each other.
                Lin

                Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

                Comment


                • #9
                  Found them still in Paston in 1851 Charles Remblauts wife P & son E unmarried? born c 1810 Ditchingham. Are we following the wrong family?
                  Piece 18089 Folio 551 Page 19

                  Moggie

                  Looks like Charles Remblants died 1857 qtr 1Tunstead.
                  Unfortunately Paston registers are not on Familysearch.
                  Last edited by maudarby; 08-08-11, 10:58.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In casting a wider net for Charles I have come across a Charles who might be next generation, in the 1851, 1861, 1871 Censuses. Failed to find in 1841, but I don't have access to Scotland.

                    He is a Blacksmith and Farrier.

                    Putting the three Censuses together, he was b 1812 Flixton, Suffolk
                    wife Mary Ann b 1809-12 Caton, Norfolk
                    1833 child Charles b Doncaster, Yorkshire
                    1841 child Charlotte b Glasgow, Scotland
                    1841 child Maria b Glasgow, Scotland (Charlotte and Maria do not appear in the same Census so may be the same person)
                    1847 child Emily b Ballinadlig(?), Ireland
                    1850 child Charlotte b Nottingham
                    1851 child Eliza E b Sheffield, Yorkshire
                    1851 living 1st Royal Dragoons Barracks, Nottingham
                    1854 child Agnes b Manchester, Lancashire
                    1861 living Hulme [near Manchester], Lancashire
                    1871 living Newton [near Manchester] Lancashire

                    This Charles evidently moved around a lot, but unlike most of the folk I've been looking at recently in Norfolk there was never a Census night spent with other relatives!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks maudarby. Your 1851 find (post 9) was mistranscribed Rowlands in findmypast, but this has the feel of being right to me, despite the Unmarried bit. Rachel nee Perfect is at Broome HO107/1820/472/18 described as Head and Married with 3 children (1838 to 1844 all b Broome).

                      My post 10 was being written as all the ones in between were writing yours.
                      re post 5 - good stuff, thanks
                      post 6 - leaves Charles death uncertain
                      post 7 - I needed that reminder - it is what set me off on this track in the first place!

                      So much, so quickly!

                      I don't plan to pursue other children (such as Charles b1812 in my post 10) - it gets too remote - unless the name turns up again.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by col48 View Post

                        I don't plan to pursue other children (such as Charles b1812 in my post 10) - it gets too remote - unless the name turns up again.
                        Hi
                        I agree, chasing every Tom, Dick & Harry with a similar sounding name can become too involved but I think this Charles that you have found was another cousin of Edward & Ann related through another brother (William) of Charles & Daniel.I can post a few more details if you like.

                        Moggie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by maudarby View Post
                          Hi
                          There doesn't appear to be a baptism at Ditchingham for Ann c1812.
                          Two other children for Charles & Phoebe.
                          Emily bap 31st Jan 1802 Ditchingham & Charlotte born 5th July & bap 5th Aug 1804 at Woodton.
                          Marriage for Charles Remnants & Phoebe Gates both single.
                          26th Oct 1801 Ditchingham Witnesses Mary Kersey & James Tibnam

                          Marriage for Daniel Remnant & Elizabeth Taylor both single.
                          8th Nov 1805 Ditchingham Witnesses Frances Cooper & Robert Taylor.

                          2nd marriage for Daniel Remnants widower, farmer & Harriet Knights widow.
                          13th March 1841 Ditchingham Witnesses Richard & Elizabeth Buck.
                          Groom's father Daniel Remnants, woodman, bride's father Charles Patrick, labourer

                          Children of Daniel & his first wife Elizabeth appear to have been baptised at Earsham between 1805 & 1822, no sign of an Ann.
                          Possibly Charles & Daniel were brothers.
                          Baptisms at Hedenham for children of Daniel Remnants & Susan (Allen) include a Daniel bap 1780 & a Charles born 1783.

                          Moggie
                          It is possible that Daniel and Phoebe moved to Paston before 1812 ( Ann's birth).
                          In that case the only way to find that baptism is to ask for a Norfolk look up here.



                          Put Norfolk in the title.

                          I will be going there myself in September sometime so could do it if no-one else is going beforehand.

                          I have the same problem with my 3rd GG who was baptised in Bacton a few miles from Paston. The vicar there won't allow them to be photographed even from the records held at Norwich RO.
                          I would ask for both Paston and Bacton records to be searched.
                          Kat

                          My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by maudarby View Post
                            Hi
                            I agree, chasing every Tom, Dick & Harry with a similar sounding name can become too involved but I think this Charles that you have found was another cousin of Edward & Ann related through another brother (William) of Charles & Daniel.I can post a few more details if you like.
                            It seems a shame to waste your effort, so do please post those details.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                              In that case the only way to find that baptism is to ask for a Norfolk look up here.

                              The vicar there won't allow them to be photographed even from the records held at Norwich RO.
                              Kat - good idea. I'll do that.

                              As someone who has deposited records at Gloucester RO in the past (as PCC Secretary, not vicar!) I know their policy at that time was to make it clear that any deposited records would be publicly available (including photocopying or manual copying) unless the depositor filled in a form to say they were 'closed' for a particular period, in which case they could not be even seen by non-RO staff except the depositor until that time had passed. It may be the vicar does not want them to be entered into LDS data for religious reasons, but it might be worth trying carefully to persuade him or her.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The RO at Norwich had a list of parishes that they weren't allowed to copy. I did say I would write to the vicar but they said I could try where others had failed hence I never bothered. I have the ref and that's what counts.
                                Kat

                                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Many years ago I made several visits to Norfolk tracing my ancestors. For some of the parishes I was interested in the Record Office had no burial records post 1812. I was told that some of the registers might still be in the possession of the churches. This proved to be the case at Banham & on one visit I made an appointment & paid to view the burial register. I enquired about some other local churches & the same thing applied I had to make arrangements with the vicar to look at the registers, something I never got round to doing. I don’t know if there is a hard & fast rule about registers being deposited at the Record Office but someone told me that churches didn’t have to deposit registers until 100 years after the last entry.
                                  Moggie

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    This is the info re Charles Remnant born c 1812 Bungay/Flixton.
                                    Unfortunately its not really relevant to your original query about Edward & Ann being brother & sister.
                                    William Remnents bap 27th May 1777 at Ditchingham parents Daniel & Susan.
                                    William Remnents married Lucey Whiskin 27th Feb 1798 at Earsham
                                    Witnesses Susan Frestone (sister) & Henry Hunt.

                                    Lucy Remnant bap 25th Oct 1801 at Catton parents William & Lucy.

                                    Mary, Ann, Lucy, William & Phoebe Remnants all bap 14th Oct 1804 at Topcroft, parents William & Lucy.

                                    Thomas Remnants born 1807 bap 12th Nov 1809 at Torcroft parents William & Lucy.

                                    Charles Remnant bap 8th July 1810 at South Elmham parents William Remnant & Charlotte? Wiskin.
                                    (In 1851 Charles gave his birthplace as Bungay, later census Flixton. All 3 places very close to each other)

                                    Charles Remnants married Mary Ann Everett 1829 Sprowston.

                                    Mary Ann bap 30th Oct 1831 at Catton, parents Charles & Mary Ann Remnants, father soldier.

                                    Rosetta Matilda Remnants bap 22nd Jan 1843 Hulme near Manchester
                                    Parents Charles & Mary Anne (Everett)

                                    Moggie

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by maudarby View Post
                                      I don’t know if there is a hard & fast rule about registers being deposited at the Record Office but someone told me that churches didn’t have to deposit registers until 100 years after the last entry.
                                      Moggie
                                      Firstly, Moggie, thank you again for your Remembrances, as it were!

                                      I, too, don't know if there is a rule and I expect this would be up to the individual dioceses. In Gloucester I think there was a circular about ten years ago encouraging parishes to deposit old records (PCC minutes, parish magazines etc as well as the registers of principal interest to genealogists) which were no longer of current use. The main reasons given were because documents are more likely to deteriorate in the conditions of damp, vermin infestation or just neglect which can easily arise locally; after all the church's main business is not the preservation of records! They also pointed out that requests for information from records could be handled by the RO when many churches have no copying facilities. There were no specific guidelines about the age of records.

                                      Actually, even if there is a rule, it would still be up to local people - vicar, churchwardens - to act on it. And that is going to be patchy.

                                      Comment

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