some french.......understandings..?

[kylejustin]

i have found an article from the sarthe archives in france. i cannot for sure say what it is about......i was hoping some one could help? i think it a general description of what this group of documents holds?

http://www.archives.sarthe.com/guidearchives/frame.asp?chemin=documents/Clerg%E9%20et%20affaires%20religieuses/1.%20Avant%201790/Monast%E8res/Femmes/B%E9n%E9dictines&fichier=montmar.xml

H 1491. - Liasse, 4 pièces papier.
Domaine : Château-du-Loir. - Acte par lequel André Bourgault, sieur du Coudray, marchand, et Sidoine Hardouineau, sa femme, Denis Bourgault, sieur de La Goronnière, et Marthe Moynerie, sa femme, donnent au prieuré, où Sidoine Bourgault, leur fille et nièce, était admise comme novice professe et fille de choeur, un pré contenant 3 quartiers et situé au Grand-Douet, près les fossés de la ville ; les religieuses qui figurent dans cet acte sont : Catherine de Boisjourdan et Renée des Chesnais, supérieures, Claude de Boisjourdan, Marthe Moynerie, Louise Bodineau, Madeleine Guillard, Marie Le Normand, Marie d'Artigné, Marguerite de La Grange, Catherine Chauvin, Catherine Fontaine, Élisabeth de Jugle, Marie Cupif, Anne Hardouineau, Anne Boutard, Gabrielle Dagion, Charlotte de Marc (Marcé?), Renée Clare (1639). Offre par les religieuses à André Bourgault de lui payer 1200 livres « en quarts d'escus, cornettes d'Espagne, louis d'or et d'argent, pistolles d'Espagne et autre monnoye ayant cours », pour conserver le pré susdit qui ne leur appartenait plus depuis que Sidoine Bourgault, sa fille, était sortie de leur maison (1645). Notes pour obtenir une consultation d'avocat sur une contestation entre les Bénédictines et les prieurs de Saint-Guingalois et de Luceau au sujet de dîmes prétendues sur le pré du Grand-Douet (1715).
1630-1715

the google version:

H 1491. - Bundle, 4-room paper.
Domaine Château-du-Loir. - Act by André Bourgault, Sieur du Coudray, merchant, and Hardouineau Sidonius, his wife, Denis Bourgault, Sieur de La Goronnière, Moynerie and Martha, his wife gave to the priory, where Sidonius Bourgault, their daughter and niece, was admitted professed as a novice and chorus girl, a pre containing three districts, located in the Grand Douet, near the moat of the city, the sisters set out in this act are: Catherine and Renee of Boisjourdan Chesnais, higher Claude Boisjourdan, Moynerie Martha Louise Bodineau, Madeleine Guillard, Marie Le Normand, Marie Artigné, Marguerite de La Grange, Catherine Chauvin, Catherine Fontaine, Elizabeth of Jugla, Marie Cupif, Hardouineau Anne, Anne Boutard, Gabrielle Dagion, Charlotte Mark (Marcé ?), Renee Clare (1639). Offers by religious André Bourgault to pay 1200 pounds "in the quarterfinals of crowns, cornets of Spain, Louis of gold and silver from Spain and other pistolles monnoye with being" to keep the pre aforesaid that no longer belonged to them since Sidonius Bourgault, his daughter had gone out of their homes (1645). Notes for a consultation on a legal dispute between the Benedictines and the priors of Saint-Guingalois and Luceau about tithes called the pre-Grand Douet (1715).
1630-1715

looking into it, it seems to be about sidoine bourgault, and maybe entering an abbey or service? i am not sure, i know sidoine hardouineau could be related to the anne mentioned in this piece, and the surname hardouineau is also mentioned in other documents on the same page on the site. the document seems to date to 1639? documents seem to finish in 1645?

[Caroline]

Just checked my dictionary and un pré is a meadow.

[ozgirl]

As a rough idea, it seems that Andre Bourgault and his brother Denis gave a field (pre) to the religious order when their daughter/niece, Sidonius, entered the order as novice and choir girl. The religious order then offered to pay them 1200 pounds to maintain the field, even though they no longer owned it. There now appears to be some legal wrangling over it.

Maybe someone can go over the finer points.

Linda

[kylejustin]

ah that makes a little sense linda. thank you as well caroline. so two brothers andre and dennis gave the abbey a field to farm? and then sidoine (sydney?) has left the abbey, and the abbess is offering to rent the field?

[Christine in Herts]

Something like...

H 1491. - Liasse, 4 pieces of paper.
Domaine : Château-du-Loir. - Deed by which André Bourgault, lord of Coudray, merchant, and Sidoine Hardouineau, his wife, Denis Bourgault, lord of La Goronnière, and Marthe Moynerie, his wife, give to the priory, where Sidoine Bourgault, their daughter and niece, was admitted as professing novice and choir girl, a meadow containing 3 quarters {presumably a measure of area} and situated at Grand-Douet, by the town walls ; the religieuses who figure in this deed are : Catherine de Boisjourdan and Renée des Chesnais, superiors, Claude de Boisjourdan, Marthe Moynerie, Louise Bodineau, Madeleine Guillard, Marie Le Normand, Marie d'Artigné, Marguerite de La Grange, Catherine Chauvin, Catherine Fontaine, Élisabeth de Jugle, Marie Cupif, Anne Hardouineau, Anne Boutard, Gabrielle Dagion, Charlotte de Marc (Marcé?), Renée Clare (1639). Offer by the religieuses to André Bourgault to pay him 1200 livres « in {a various coin-denominations} quarter d'escus, cornettes d'Espagne, louis d'or and d'argent, pistolles d'Espagne and other money having currency », to keep the undermentioned meadow which no longer belonged to them since Sidoine Bourgault, his daughter, left the house (1645). Notes in order to obtain a consultation with an advocate on a dispute between the Benedictines and the appellants of Saint-Guingalois and de Luceau on the subject of dîmes prétendues on the meadow of Grand-Douet (1715).
1630-1715

Haven't looked up the blue words - the rest 'from the top of my head', so open to correction by more expert students of French. It seems reasonable to suppose that prétendues is using the word "pretended" in the way it's used for someone "pretending" to a throne, say... "claimed".

Now I've looked at your original... "dîmes prétendues" are tithes. I guess that makes sense, because a "dime" is ten cents, I think - i.e. a tenth (of a dollar), so it would make sense for "dîmes" to be tithes/tenths.

I knew that "fosses" would be ditches, but I'd had an idea I'd seen the expression used more generally for fortifications - i.e. walls, as well.

I'm sure that Hamlet would have agreed that Ophelia would be a "chorus girl" if she did "get her to a nunnery"! ;)

Perhaps "prieurs" are "priors", then. I was thinking that they were "prayers" - "people who prayed" - which would make them "appellants" in a legal context.

Christine

[kylejustin]

wow thats great christine. i hadn't really been able to figure it out, but it makes more sense now. i guess if i could get copies of the documents they may have something else in them. haha not like i'd be able to read it!

[Christine in Herts]

Please note that my French, like my German, is only 'O' level with subsequent holiday practice. But I did like studying both French and German, so I got high grades, and would have taken them both further, had it been feasible.

There are others on the board with greater expertise than mine.

Google suggests that "appellant", in English, translates as "appelant", in French. So Prior probably is Prieur.

Christine

[kylejustin]

so did andre and dennis give them the meadow, as in 'gift' it? or did they allow the abbey to rent it the whole time?
so sidoine left the abbey in 1645? and the abbey still needed the land, and offered to rent it from the bougault family?
all very fascinating!

[Dead Rellies]

Original text:

H 1491. - Liasse, 4 pieces of paper. Domaine : Château-du-Loir. - Deed by which André Bourgault, lord of Coudray, merchant, and Sidoine Hardouineau, his wife, Denis Bourgault, lord of La Goronnière, and Marthe Moynerie, his wife, give to the priory, where Sidoine Bourgault, their daughter and niece, was admitted as professing novice and choir girl, a meadow containing 3 quarters {presumably a measure of area} and situated at Grand-Douet, by the town walls ; the religieuses who figure in this deed are : Catherine de Boisjourdan and Renée des Chesnais, superiors, Claude de Boisjourdan, Marthe Moynerie, Louise Bodineau, Madeleine Guillard, Marie Le Normand, Marie d'Artigné, Marguerite de La Grange, Catherine Chauvin, Catherine Fontaine, Élisabeth de Jugle, Marie Cupif, Anne Hardouineau, Anne Boutard, Gabrielle Dagion, Charlotte de Marc (Marcé?), Renée Clare (1639). Offer by the religieuses to André Bourgault to pay him 1200 livres « in {a various coin-denominations} quarter d'escus, cornettes d'Espagne, louis d'or and d'argent, pistolles d'Espagne and other money having currency », to keep the undermentioned meadow which no longer belonged to them since Sidoine Bourgault, his daughter, left the house (1645). Notes in order to obtain a consultation with an advocate on a dispute between the Benedictines and the appellants of Saint-Guingalois and de Luceau on the subject of dîmes prétendues on the meadow of Grand-Douet (1715).

[kylejustin]

thanx dead rellies, i have an idea of what it entails now!