Some help would be appreciated please

[Val and George]

I have the birth certificate for Joseph Samaine born in 1858 his parents are given as Joseph and Elizabeth with her formerly KELLY. Joseph is a dock labourer and they live in Shoreditch

In the 1861 census Joseph is shown as staying with his grandparents - John and Mary PADGETT at 6 Larama Place in Shoreditch whilst his parents are in Kingsworth? Place in Shoreditch
Joseph SWAIN 24 a hawker his wife Betty (aka Betsy) and daughter Mary aged 11 months.

This is where it becomes complicated because their surname is never ever recorded the same way twice for all their children.

I should mention here that I did find a marriage for Joseph SMAIN and Elizabeth Kelly in the LMA records for 1858 - Joseph's occupation is given as a labourer

Joseph and Elizabeth have a large family, adding Mary Ann in 1860, James Thomas in 1861, twins Elizabeth and Caroline in 1863 and Charles in 1865 - as well as many more. But I do have the birth certificate for Charles born in 1865 and his mother is given as formerly Elizabeth Pagett
James Thomas was born to Joseph and Elizabeth Semaine in Nov 1861. They lived at 3 Mail Coach Yard - where they stayed for a good few years and Joseph's occupation was a hawker.

The Kelly/Padgett combination is very confusing. I worked along the lines that maybe Joseph married Elizabeth Kelly, she gave birth to Joseph Jnr died and he remarried Elizabeth Padgett. However I can find no death or burial for Elizabeth Samaine/and or all the various spellings, before the 1861 census when he is staying with his Padgett grandparents.

I was hoping that a fresh pair of eyes/brain might see another angle I hadn't previously thought of.

[margaretmarch]

Could it be that Elizabeth Kelly is a first marriage name and that she was Padgett at birth?
Margaret

PS the LMA marriage record shows Elizabeth as spinster so that theory is out of the window!! LOL

[Night Owl]

There is a marriage on the LMA records between John Paggett and Mary Kelly in Dec 1840. This may be the grandparents

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_194853-00268&fn=John&ln=Paggett&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2200738

Mary was a spinster. If Elizabeth was born in 1836/37 to Mary Kelly before she got married, she could have been Elizabeth Kelly at birth but then recorded on the census as Paggett (Padgett).

[margaretmarch]

Well found Night Owl!
Margaret

[Val and George]

Jackie - that could well be the reason - I knew a clear brain could probably see the obvious - I've become too bogged down.

Thankyou to you and Margaret for spending the time. I am very grateful.

[Night Owl]

Its a theory but I'm not sure how to prove it though.

[Val and George]

...and a darn good theory Jackie - I love it - many thanks

[margaretmarch]

The proof would be to find the birth cert for Elizabeth where it shows no father's name.
Margaret

[JudithM]

The proof would be to find the birth cert for Elizabeth where it shows no father's name.
Margaret

Problem being she may have been born pre civil registration, but a baptism record may be useful? What father's name and occupation was given for Elizabeth Kelly on the 1858 marriage? What place of birth does she give on census returns? These would be helpful to try to track down a baptism and possibly a link to that Kelly/Paggett marriage.

[Val and George]

Judith I haven't been able to find a baptism for Elizabeth, and unfortunately on the marriage entry her father is given as 'John Kelly'

So,not too sure if the officiating cleric asked for her father's name - and she just said 'John' - and then he wrote in the surname of Kelly,
...or whether there was a person John Kelly. The witnesses names don't help unfortunately.