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1881 challenge: CHARMAN family in Sussex

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  • 1881 challenge: CHARMAN family in Sussex

    This is strictly non-essential (not direct-line ancestors, and some way down a side-branch I was following out of curiosity!), but it's bugging me because I've tried to find them and have had no success.

    m 1876q4 Horsham. Maria Margaret KNIGHT & George CHARMAN

    Where are they in 1881?
    George CHARMAN:
    b 1853-54 West Chiltington [1891;1911] 1854-55 [1901] ?1854q1 Thakeham

    Maria Margaret CHARMAN née KNIGHT:
    b c Jun 1860 Wivelsfield, SSX [1861;1871] 1858-59 Haywards Heath [1891]

    Percy James CHARMAN:
    b 1877q1 Horsham; 1876-77 Billingshurst [1891] 1877-78 West Childington [1911] W Chiddington, nr Pullborough, SSX [Service Record WO97 / 4517 / 159]
    bap 19 Jan 1877 St Mary the Virgin, Billingshurst. s/o George CHARMAN, railway lab (fetler) & Maria Margaret; Gate House, Adversane [SFHG-d-base]

    Jesse CHARMAN:
    b 1878q2 Thakeham; 1878-79 West Chiltington [1891] 1880-81 [1901]

    George CHARMAN:
    b 1880q1 Thakeham; 1879-80 West Chiltington [1891;1911]

    afterwards:
    1891 RG12/833 fo 69 p 6
    1901 RG13/964 fo 7 p 4
    1911 RG14/5306 RG78/237 RD83 SD1 ED7 SN9

    I've tried looking for the youngsters with the rarer names:
    • can't find Percy & Jesse together
    • can't find that CHARMAN family in W Chiltington (FMP images)
    • can't find either babe with parent(s)
    • nor with either set of grandparents (CHARMAN or KNIGHT)

    I don't have Ancestry at the moment; I'm working with FMP, FamilySearch, and the Sussex Family History Group database. It's hard to see how they could have emigrated and got back to meet the gaps in the children's PoB! There's an Annie Maria CHARMAN: b 1881-82 West Chiltington [1891;1911] 1880-81 [1901].

    As I say - it's not worth anyone spending lots of time (even less should anyone use up credits) on it... but it does bug me.

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

  • #2
    This may be a complete red herring, but I have in my tree an adopted daughter IDA ROSE CHARMAN, born 1892 in Clapton, east London. Like your Charmans, she's such remote twig I haven't found her parents. (But the LMA records weren't there when I last looked for her).
    Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks, UJ.

      I noticed that some of the CHARMAN hits were in London - and a smattering elsewhere - but it does seem to be a southern name.

      Christine
      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

      Comment


      • #4
        Just to say that I've had a look but cannot see them.
        Elaine







        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you, Elaine. If you can't find them, then I don't feel so bad that I can't.

          I did spot one house which was described as having occupants who were "temporarily absent" (or words to that effect), so maybe that was their house and they weren't recorded wherever they actually were for some reason.

          Christine
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
            This is strictly non-essential (not direct-line ancestors, and some way down a side-branch I was following out of curiosity!), but it's bugging me because I've tried to find them and have had no success.

            m 1876q4 Horsham. Maria Margaret KNIGHT & George CHARMAN

            Where are they in 1881?
            George CHARMAN:
            b 1853-54 West Chiltington [1891;1911] 1854-55 [1901] ?1854q1 Thakeham

            Maria Margaret CHARMAN née KNIGHT:
            b c Jun 1860 Wivelsfield, SSX [1861;1871] 1858-59 Haywards Heath [1891]

            Percy James CHARMAN:
            b 1877q1 Horsham; 1876-77 Billingshurst [1891] 1877-78 West Childington [1911] W Chiddington, nr Pullborough, SSX [Service Record WO97 / 4517 / 159]
            bap 19 Jan 1877 St Mary the Virgin, Billingshurst. s/o George CHARMAN, railway lab (fetler) & Maria Margaret; Gate House, Adversane [SFHG-d-base]

            Jesse CHARMAN:
            b 1878q2 Thakeham; 1878-79 West Chiltington [1891] 1880-81 [1901]

            George CHARMAN:
            b 1880q1 Thakeham; 1879-80 West Chiltington [1891;1911]

            afterwards:
            1891 RG12/833 fo 69 p 6
            1901 RG13/964 fo 7 p 4
            1911 RG14/5306 RG78/237 RD83 SD1 ED7 SN9

            I've tried looking for the youngsters with the rarer names:
            • can't find Percy & Jesse together
            • can't find that CHARMAN family in W Chiltington (FMP images)
            • can't find either babe with parent(s)
            • nor with either set of grandparents (CHARMAN or KNIGHT)

            I don't have Ancestry at the moment; I'm working with FMP, FamilySearch, and the Sussex Family History Group database. It's hard to see how they could have emigrated and got back to meet the gaps in the children's PoB! There's an Annie Maria CHARMAN: b 1881-82 West Chiltington [1891;1911] 1880-81 [1901].

            As I say - it's not worth anyone spending lots of time (even less should anyone use up credits) on it... but it does bug me.

            Christine
            Hi Christine from Hertfordshire
            I've been building the Charman trribes family tree(s) for quite a while now and I've never found George & Maria in the 1881 census either.

            Did you get any answers?

            Peculiarly, as far as I can tell, George was baptised as John, but his birth registsered as George and he appears as George every time he's recorded in a census or baptism etc. He died in 1939 and Maria Margaret died in 1907. Theres at least a possibility that he re-married to Louisa Binfield (nee Heard) in 1921 but I suspect that her husband was a different George Charman.

            Colin

            Regards, Colin Charman
            EDIT by Christine in Herts: many thanks for your e-address (of which I've taken note) but the FTF T&Cs don't allow e-addresses in open forum - but see my post, below)
            Last edited by Christine in Herts; 03-04-13, 11:57.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello Colin - and Welcome to FTF!

              Many thanks for your interesting post about the CHARMAN name. So far George and Maria remain elusive in 1881. Perhaps I should have another look to see if I can spot anything useful. It's nearly two years since my original post, and there's a lot more material available online, now.

              About e-addresses... If you want to share your e-address with someone, you have only to send them a PM (personal message). This can be done by clicking on their name, where it appears to the left of their post. You'll get a drop-down menu, one of which is for a PM.

              best wishes
              Christine
              Now I shall have to have another look! ;)
              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

              Comment


              • #8
                I suppose it's too easy to suggest that they might be listed as ChaPman rather than ChaRman, isn't it?
                Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I thought I'd try the newspapers, but am now hooked on the tragedy of the death, in 1902, of Gertrude CHARMAN at the hands of her father, George, who appears to have been insane at the time - a Crawley family. The inquest was reported in the Surrey Mirror of July 25, 1902.

                  There's no obvious sign of a newspaper article linking CHARMAN with Chiltington.

                  Christine
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                    I suppose it's too easy to suggest that they might be listed as ChaPman rather than ChaRman, isn't it?
                    I think I'd have thought of that, because I have CHAPMANs in another part of the tree - but it's always worth checking something like that. I'd rather have useful info several times, than miss something because everyone imagines that I already know, or have already tried something!

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks all for jogging my thoughts into mistranscription mode! But it hasn't helped me to find where "my" Ida Rose Charman was in the 1911 census.

                      Born May 1892 at 271 Mare Street Hackney (which I think was the workhouse or similar) to Emily Charman a servant (no father stated).

                      1901 census - adopted by Henry and Mary Bryan and living in Enfield. Mary died in 1908 and in 1911 Henry is living with his son in Birmingham.

                      Marries Thomas Cowlin in April 1919 in North Kensington (the marriage register gives her a fictitious deceased father). Thomas became rich running a coach-building business which is still in existence.

                      Where was Ida between 1901 and getting married?
                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                        I thought I'd try the newspapers, but am now hooked on the tragedy of the death, in 1902, of Gertrude CHARMAN at the hands of her father, George, who appears to have been insane at the time - a Crawley family. The inquest was reported in the Surrey Mirror of July 25, 1902.

                        There's no obvious sign of a newspaper article linking CHARMAN with Chiltington.

                        Christine
                        In case you haven't solved that tragic riddle, this George Charman was born 24/12/1865 in Ifield, married to Alice Mary Blundell. Their son Walter had died 3 months before he drowned Gertrude and they had a son Wilfred George born 3 days after Gertrude's death - who was their only child who survived to adulthood (he died in 1975). Ive no idea if Walters death or Wilfreds birth were significant but the dates are very very close.

                        George Charman probably died either in 1943 in Lewes Reg District (prison?) or possibly 1917 in Crowthorne (Broadmoor) - the 1917 death doesnt match his age/dob.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you for the extra detail, Colin. I had stopped following it up, only because I have enough of my own tree to follow, and dare not spend too much time following up other people's, but I was intrigued by the story. It's good to know that one of their children survived. It also makes sense of the references in the paper to his wife being "confined" or "going into confinement" at the time of his trial (I think), if another child was born so close to the drowning. I had forgotten that use of the word.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My paternal Grandmother was Charman, and from that area of surrey too
                            I am pretty su
                            re there is a Charman/Knight association in my tree too.

                            Got it
                            Martha Knight M Peter Charman 1880- they had 9 children, one of whom was my Pat Grandmother Abigail
                            Last edited by Jessbowbag; 04-04-13, 22:29.
                            Jess

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jessbowbag View Post
                              My paternal Grandmother was Charman, and from that area of surrey too
                              I am pretty su
                              re there is a Charman/Knight association in my tree too.

                              Got it
                              Martha Knight M Peter Charman 1880- they had 9 children, one of whom was my Pat Grandmother Abigail

                              Peter Charman was from the Ifield/Charlwood tribe - I have them sorted out back to a Charles Charman who married Ann Aylward in Horsham in 1763. I've never found his baptism so he's a loose end. He doesn't seem to be the Charles Charman born in Warnham as I believe I can trace his life and death, but I've never been 10%% certain.

                              Incidentally the Charles Charman born in Warnham in 1744 was the son of another Charles Charman born around 1720 who is another "loose end". I'm starting to wonder whether the name Charles suddenly came into fashion (Bonnie Prince Charlie born in Rome 1720, Jacobite Revolution etc) and whether your Charles and/or the Warnham 1720-ish Charles had been baptised under another name then adopted the name Charles later in life.

                              And of course the two Warnham Charles Charmans both married Knights who may be related to your Martha.

                              Regards, Colin
                              Last edited by Elaine ..Spain; 05-04-13, 15:50. Reason: post edited ..

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                In case we can join something up here...

                                According to my research - by no means all of which is properly backed by documentation...
                                • James BIGWOOD (c1750 - 1820) m Fanny LIGHT on 7 Apr 1785 at W Wittering.
                                • Their eldest child was also James BIGWOOD (b c1785), who married Sarah MILLS (b c1787) 1 Dec 1812 in Chichester.
                                • Their youngest (of abt 6) children was Clara BIGWOOD (c1827-1900), who married Jesse KNIGHT (c1840-1900) in 1859, in the Lewes district.
                                • Clara and Jesse KNIGHT's eldest child was Maria Margaret KNIGHT (b 1860) who married George CHARMAN (b1854) in 1876 in Horsham district.


                                James BIGWOOD (b c1785) had about 7 siblings, of whom the next in age to him was Elisabeth/Elizabeth BIGWOOD (b c1787), who married Edmund HOLDEN on 17 Jun 1808, in Felpham.
                                The sibling after Elisabeth was Joseph BIGWOOD (c1788-1857), my Gx4-grandfather.

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment

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