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Lighterman apprenticeship help

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  • Lighterman apprenticeship help

    Hi many of my London ancestors were Waterman and Lighterman and through the forum ages ago someone was able to find a date when an ancestor Ambrose Stokes was fully qualified as a Waterman.

    When having a look through old records and when getting help searching for Florence Smith I found a few sources that point to my great great grandfather Solomon Smith being a lighterman and wondered if anyone can help.

    His name was Solomon Smith born 8th March 1866 in Weedon, Daventry in Northampton. In previous censuses he listed as a Captain or steer man of canal barges but on the birth of his daughter Florence in 1898 he is listed as a Lighterman and then again on the marriage certificate of his son Solomon in 1918 he is again listed as a Lighterman. On the 1911 census he is listed as a Bargeman.

    As his father in law was a Waterman I wonder if he pushed or helped him into becoming a fully trained Lighterman?

    Can anyone help at all?

    Thanks

    Steven

  • #2
    This is the first place I'd look for that kind of info/advice: http://www.parishregister.com/
    ParishRegister.com, the Family History Web Site of Docklands Ancestors Ltd. for those tracing their Docklands, East End and Thames Watermen & Lightermen Ancestors.
    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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    • #3
      You might find some other information on this page too (at the bottom):

      Caroline
      Caroline's Family History Pages
      Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

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      • #4
        Thanks Christine may have to order a CD with the transcribed information. Thanks Caroline will check it out

        Steven

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        • #5
          Steven,
          You will find the Waterman and Lighterman discs that are advertised on the Parishregister.com site only refer to those men who served their apprenticeship on the Thames.
          Do you know when Solomon moved from Northampton to London?
          Elaine







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          • #6
            In 1891 he is aged around 24 and living in Uxbridge although I think the age is wrong. In 1892 when he marries Mary Ann Stokes he is aged 22 and is living at 106 Carr Street in Stepney. In 1901 aged 30 and living in Limehouse in Stepney andin 1911 he is living at 19 St Thomas Road, Mile End and then the final address he is at in 1918 until his death in 1941 is 135 Canal Road, Mile End

            So it looks Elaine as if he mainly lived in the London area

            Steven

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            • #7
              In the 1881 census he is aged 16 and living on board a canal grain boat with an occupation as a boat boy. THe place is given as Holy Trinity, Coventry.

              It's a strange one as he is listed as Captain, canal boat steerer, bargeman and then finally lighterman (in that order). Could some people be apprenticed later in life or done better for himself?

              Steven



              Steven

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              • #8
                Originally posted by stevie2006 View Post
                Could some people be apprenticed later in life .....
                I've no idea! I've got quite a few Thames watermen/lightermen ancestors, but they generally started their apprenticeship when age 14.
                Elaine







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                • #9
                  If he came from Weedon, perhaps he started out on the narrow boats on the Grand Union Canal (B'rum to London) which passes Weedon?
                  The boats were usually worked as pairs (narrow boat pulled by horse/later motorised, with butty towed behind.) The pair of boats required a crew of 2, so maybe he started out as steersman on the butty, progressing to boatman/captain when in charge of the pair.
                  (When going through a lock, the butty is cast off - if a single lock, it has to be manhandled through: if a double lock, it has to be steered in and aligned alongside the lead/motor boat; this requires skill, as the lock just has room enough for the two boats, so you have to judge direction and glide.)

                  Jay
                  Janet in Yorkshire



                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                  • #10
                    Thanks Elaine for all your help

                    Thanks Jay that makes a bit of sense as on the 1891 census he is listed as a Captain of a boat called the Mars at Cowley Lock and there is only Solomon and one other person on the boat. I am now thinking he started on the canal boats like his father then married Mary Ann Stokes whose father is a waterman. He then perhaps pushes Solomon to become a Lighterman to give him and his family a better life or am I guessing too much?

                    Steven

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                    • #11
                      I would say that describing himself as a lighterman is "bigging-up". All the locations quoted are on the Grand Junction / Grand Union Canal network, even the ones in the east end of London. Think 2012 Olympics in relation to the canals which connect the Regents Canal to the River Thames. As Elaine says, a lighterman's apprenticeship is a long one that starts as a teenager. And navigating the tideway requires a different skill-set from navigating canals.
                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                      • #12
                        Ill check my discs but as John and Elaine say, the apprentices normally started at about 14 and had a 7 year apprenticeship. They were not allowed to marry during that time - if they did you will find they either went on to a lowlier job or completed the apprenticeship at a later date. Then there were those boys who were whipped off by the Royal Navy part way through their apprenticeships and had to complete later (I have one guy taking 14 years due to marrying in the middle). There were some short "2 year" apprenticeships at one point but these short apprenticeship takers were looked down on by the men who had served full time.

                        John is also correct in saying they may big up their occupation on certs. My own GGFx2 on dads side claims to be a lighterman when he is only 19 years old at his marriage Later census show him as lighterman's labourer.

                        Anyway, Ill sort out my discs and check for your chap in London - btw, what was the father in laws name? Where did he complete his apprenticeship?

                        Ok, no show for Solomon Smith on the relevant Thames apprenticeship bindings. I will look on some other cds I have in case he turns up.

                        No sorry, he doesnt show on reassignments either. I was wondering if he was moved from one master to another in London but nothing Im afraid. Did any of his sons become lightermen or watermen?

                        You may need to check in the area he was born or further outside London/thames.
                        Last edited by Heather Positive Thinker; 10-05-11, 10:40.

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                        • #13
                          Thanks Heather I really appreciate you looking. Solomon's father in law was called Ambrose Stokes and I think he was apprenticed to a John Clark on 12th June 1866 in Brentford when he was aged 21. I think he was freed on 13th August 1872. His father was Samual Stokes and he was bound to a Henry Perry on 13th August 1829 and he would have been aged 15 - I don't know when he was freed.

                          Samuel's father was a William Stokes and I know nothing on him apart from he was born in Brentford in 1788 - I would assume he would have also been a Waterman but cannot confirm anything - if you could find anything I would be extremely grateful.

                          All 3 were waterman and all 3 were born and lived in Brentford

                          Steven

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                          • #14
                            Incidently Heather you were spot on about the Navy comment - Ambrose on the 1861 census is aboard HMS Icarus in Portsmouth as a boat boy aged 15. Would you have any idea how to find out if he had a navy career before becoming a waterman?

                            Thanks for that added information

                            Steven

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                            • #15
                              Is this him on the National Archives website. You can download the information for 3.50 pounds


                              ... but be warned, it possibly wont show much more than the boats he served on.
                              Elaine







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                              • #16
                                Umm, you may get a bit more than just the boats he served on - this is a guide to the sort of thing you might find on that record
                                Elaine







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                                • #17
                                  I ordered it Elaine and it gives me his height and general description which is great. Nothing about which boats he served on but well worth £3.50

                                  Thanks

                                  Steven

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                                  • #18
                                    Glad you weren't disappointed. It's sometimes difficult to know what you might get!
                                    Elaine







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                                    • #19
                                      As I said some of the writing is really poor in places so can't make out what he may have done but will have a look and see what I can make out but great to get a description of an ancestor born in 1845

                                      Steven

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                                      • #20
                                        The plot thickens - it looks as though Ambrose deserted twice. I let Elaine see the images and she agrees. That explains why he joined the navy in 1860 and then was bound in 1866 - the National Archives state that boys had to serve a minimum of 10 years. It looks as though he deserted in February 1865 and then the next year is bound to John Clark. Would desertion not have gone against him being taken on as an apprentice?

                                        Steven

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