I would like some help...

[Ginger]

I'm searching for ancestors of Florence Synden (or maybe Lynden) b. 1874 d. 1950. She married in 1904 to Rupert Turner Haydon in Mitcham Surrey. She had a step-sister named Dolly Jenner. I believe William Jenner, Dolly's father gave her away at the wedding.

[ayse]

I've found the marriage registered in 1904 in the 4th qtr. 1904 volume 2a page 598. The name of the bride is Florence Sinden. I have had a quick look at the census but without a birth place for Florence it is difficult to find the right one. Do you have any further info for Florence. For example did she have any full brothers or sisters? Where was she born? Do you know the name and/or occupation of her father. You probably need to buy the marriage certificate and have a good look at it.
Hope this helps a bit.

[ayse]

Further to the above. I have found another tree on Ancestry with a Florie Sinden born 1871, father James and mother Emma. James born 1845, Hastings, Sussex a stone mason. James is still alive in 1901 and I cannot find a death for him by 1905. This suggests that James may not be the father. The best thing to do to go further would e to buy the marriage certificate from the general register office with the details I have described above.

Good luck

[margaretmarch]

I've found the marriage registered in 1904 in the 4th qtr. 1904 volume 2a page 598. The name of the bride is Florence Sinden. I have had a quick look at the census but without a birth place for Florence it is difficult to find the right one. Do you have any further info for Florence. For example did she have any full brothers or sisters? Where was she born? Do you know the name and/or occupation of her father. You probably need to buy the marriage certificate and have a good look at it.
Hope this helps a bit.

The district is Croydon - you will need to quote that as well.

[margaretmarch]

On 1911 Florence is shown as born Brixton 1877.

[margaretmarch]

Here's a possibility in 1881 - the age is out by 4 years though

Name: Florence Sinden Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Battersea
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 176 May Soule Rd
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 17b Piece: 641 Folio: 110 Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Sinden 28 Head
Elizabeth Sinden 27 Wife
James Sinden 67 Father (to Thomas)

[margaretmarch]

Here's a birth for the one found in the 1881 census
Florence Sinden
Year of Registration: 1872
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Lambeth County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d Page: 505

There don't appear to be any other likely candidates even for the supposed year of birth given on the 1911.

If Florence was born in 1872 had given her correct age she would have shown as 6/7 years older than her husband - maybe embarrassed?
Margaret

[maudarby]

Hi
I think the surname is Sinden. If William Jenner was Florence's step-father then he must have married her mother. In A/M/J 1886 at Tonbridge there was an Adeline Gipson Sinden possibly marrying William Thomas S Jenner & in 1869 J/A/S at Faversham an Adeline Gipson Terry possibly marrying a George Edward Sinden. I have found them in 1871 & 1881 but Florence isn't with them.
Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree.
Moggie

[margaretmarch]

I can't find Florence on the 1891 or 1901 but look at this for Dorothy (Dolly?) Jenner 1901

Dorothy Jenner
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Wm Jenner
Mother's name: Charlotte Jenner
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: Mitcham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter and St Paul
Town: Mitcham
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Mitcham
ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Household schedule number: 109 Piece: 655 Folio: 73 Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Jenner 44 head
Charlotte Jenner 43 wife
Florence Jenner 21 daughter - could this be Florence Sinden?
Dorothy Jenner 8 daughter
Sturgess Jenner 42
Robert Reed 16

[margaretmarch]

I think we need more information on William Jenner, Dolly Jenner and Dolly's mother before we can take this further.
Margaret

[JudithM]

Here's a possibility in 1881 - the age is out by 4 years though

Name: Florence Sinden Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Battersea
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 176 May Soule Rd
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 17b Piece: 641 Folio: 110 Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Sinden 28 Head
Elizabeth Sinden 27 Wife
James Sinden 67 Father (to Thomas)

I can't find Florence on the 1891 or 1901 but look at this for Dorothy (Dolly?) Jenner 1901

Dorothy Jenner
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Wm Jenner
Mother's name: Charlotte Jenner
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: Mitcham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter and St Paul
Town: Mitcham
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Mitcham
ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Household schedule number: 109 Piece: 655 Folio: 73 Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Jenner 44 head
Charlotte Jenner 43 wife
Florence Jenner 21 daughter - could this be Florence Sinden?
Dorothy Jenner 8 daughter
Sturgess Jenner 42
Robert Reed 16

Following up these two, found Thomas SINDEN aged 7, with father James SINDEN in Camberwell 1861 RG09 piece 380 folio 80 page 10
He had a sister Charlotte aged 12. Could be Florence was Charlotte's illegitimate daughter. Stayed with her uncle until Charlotte married (or of course just happened to be visiting uncle Thomas on census night).

[margaretmarch]

Judith, yes I had come to the view that probably Florence was illegitimate and was looking to see how we could link her to William Jenner - the Charlotte name works but I can't see a marriage for them two :(
Margaret

[Ginger]

Thank you for all the attention !!! I'll have to absorb all this before responding... I'm new to this and don't know what I should or shouldn't do.
Can I attach a jpeg of the marriage certificate to this page message? It will show the correct spelling as SYNDEN not SINDEN.

I believe Florence Jenner is the individual I'm looking for but the age is questionable. Going by her marriage certificate she would have been born in 1876 since is shows her age as 28 in 1904. Her death certificate shows her age as 76; she died in February 1950, so she would have been born in 1874. The 1901 census gives her age as 21 meaning born in 1980.

This is bizarre... everything points to Florence Synden aka Florence Jenner aka Florence Haydon being the correct person... her daughter nee Kathleen Haydon is my mother.

Ginger

[Ginger]

Marriage Cert 1 - (Rupert T Haydon - Florence Synden).jpg

[Ginger]

This 2Mb Marriage Cert - (Rupert T Haydon - Florence Synden).jpgmarriage certificate should be easy to read...

[margaretmarch]

Thanks for putting up the marriage cert. I am not convinced the name is spelt Synden as there are none showing on the birth index and the only Florence Synden I can see in a census is with father William. If Florence was known as Jenner for most of her life up to marriage she may not have known how to spell her birth name because she hadn't ever used it.

If you can post up details of the Jenner family that might help us piece it together for you with a bit more certainty.
Margaret

[Ginger]

Good point Margaret. You'll notice on the marriage certificate that Florence lived at Ravensbury Lodge, Mitcham, Surrey. Her daughter Kathleen, my mother, lived there as a small child too; she told me they lived on the Ravensbury Estate and raised harness ponies for racing. She was born in 1908 so both should show up on the 1911 UK census. I've seen an image of the 1901 UK census which shows William Jenner (44 Head) , Charlotte Jenner (43 Wife), Florence Jenner (21 Daughter) Dorothy Jenner (8 Daughter), Sturgess Jenner (42 - Domestic Gardener ), Robert Reed (16 Stable Boy Groom). The S&N File Reference is CD5 RG 13_655.pdf p.145 and another reference is RG13/0655/~F74; I don't know what either if these references mean.
This all fits from what I learned from my mother who is now deceased. Florence Jenner is Florence Synden or Lynden shown on the marriage certificate. Does this help you piece it together?
Are there UK adoption records available for the range of birth given (1874 through 1880)?... I'm living in Western Canada so am unfamiliar with the UK system and terms like A/M/J & J/A/S.
Florence could well have been illegitimate with all these 'trip wires' set up to confuse.

[Ginger]

William Jenner - Kathleen's Maternal Grandfather's Memorial - 1922.jpg

[margaretmarch]

Formal adoption did not start in the UK until 1927 so no records for the time frame we are talking about. I don't think adoption is the issue here. It seems from what you say that Florence was the child of Charlotte Sinden who then became Jenner and thus Florence took the name Jenner - this is perfectly OK to do without any formalities.

Do you have any information about William and Charlotte's marriage?

By way of explanation the RG13 ref is the 1901 census reference and the A/M/J = April/May/June and others like that refer to the months in a quarter where a birth death or marriage is recorded. The indexes are arranged in quarters and by district which has a volume number and then a page number - you need these to order a certificate.

Here are the Jenner family in 1911
JENNER, William Head Married M 60 1851 Gardener Petersfield
JENNER, Charlotte Wife Married 32 years F 60 1851 Brixton
JENNER, Dorothy Daughter Single F 18 1893 Brixton
COCKEL, Martha Boarder Widow F 50 1861 Ironer In Laundry Clonakiltz Ireland
LOWNES, Marjory Niece Single F 16 1895 Assistant In Sweets Shop Notting Hill

They are living at Ravensbury Lodge Mitcham.

I think the next thing you need to find is a marriage for William Jenner to Charlotte ? - they say 32 years in 1911 but it may have been said like that to cover up Florence being born before the marriage.
Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Here's the Sinden family in 1861
SINDEN, James Head Married M 40 1821 Carpenter Eastbourne Sussex
SINDEN, Mary Wife Married F 34 1827 Carpenter Wife Hastings Sussex
SINDEN, Mary A Daughter Unmarried F 14 1847 Scholar Hastings Sussex
SINDEN, Charlotte Daughter F 12 1849 Scholar Lambeth Surrey
SINDEN, Stephen Son M 10 1851 Scholar Hastings Sussex
SINDEN, Thomas Son M 7 1854 Scholar Hastings Sussex
SINDEN, Herbert Lodger Unmarried M 22 1839 Carpenter Eastbourne Sussex

I think this is Charlotte Jenner eventually.
Margaret